Monday, June 7, 2010

The Patriarchal Pity Party: MRA Trolls and their list of "Misandrist" quotes

 This is an antifeminist troll. It may be doodlebugjim. Not sure.
[The image is from here]

The world of misogynist men's rights activist online trolls isn't as huge as one might think. The question posed to Yahoo Answers below is made by a guy named Nifty. He is the Yahoo friend of Doodlebugjim in his current incarnation. If you don't recall who Doodlebugjim is from a previous post (a mention in comments, actually), I'll update you below. And then we'll move right along to Nifty's question and a rebuttal response. The point here is to show how this trolling works, and what to look for, and that placing a reply like the one offered below, wherever you see that tired old list of "misandrist" quotes may, over time, demonstrate how small and easily challenged and rebutted these trolly woman-haters' posts are.

Virulent antifeminist Doodlebugjim keeps getting thrown off of websites and discussion boards and signs back on changing the letters at the end. Currently, he's known as "Doodlebugjimv12" and you can see his Yahoo page here:;_ylt=AsU4s63cp_8giFxoAgQKpr3sy6IX;_ylv=3?show=Jq56xXQEaa

Here's a quote by him:
"Those who want feminism don't really want equality, and those who want equality really don't want feminism"

Sadly, or pathetically, Yahoo Answers considers him to be a "Top Contributor". According to Yahoo Answers, "a Top Contributor is someone who is knowledgeable in a particular category." The category he is considered to be knowledgeable about is: "Gender & Women's Studies". I would maintain he is likely more knowledgeable about life forms on the other side of our galaxy than he is about women and feminism. You can read Doodlebugjim's answer to the question about feminism, *here* or below.

When asked by some guy "why aren't feminists offended by The Vagina Monologues?" Doodlebugjim responds:
"I have no idea why feminists accept this sort of sick and weird junk as entertainment."

Maybe it's just me, but I don't consider that a very knowledgeable response.

Curiously, he is listed as female, here at Anyone who wants to learn more about him can start with this google page. And this dude isn't trans or intersex, believe me. He shows about as much sensitivity to issues of gender variance as he does toward feminism.

Meanwhile, his pal Nifty wants to know at Yahoo Answers:

WOMEN? what do u say about these feminist quotes?

[Note: what follows are the same old batch of misquotes, quotes from fiction work not indentified as such, very selective quoting out of context, a few choice and astute observations about male supremacist men who deserve it, and misspellings of feminists' names. This list, or variations or parts of it,  is being passed around and around online. Scroll through it if you wish, for the rebuttal. Or see what it is that convinces stupid male readers that women hate men, and that feminists are "misandrists". I'll try never to write that term outside of quotation marks again, as it must always be said in a sarcastic tone of voice, or typing in a sarcastic way of writing. Ironically, this list begins with someone who is not at all feminist.]
‘If you want to get something said in the politics tell a man. If you want to get something done in the politics tell a woman’ -- Margaret Thacher

"Feminism is built on believing women's accounts of sexual use and abuse by men." -- Catharine MacKinnon

"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman." Catherine MacKinnon

"All men are rapists and that's all they are" -- Marilyn French Author, "The Women's Room" (quoted again in People Magazine) "All men are rapists and that's all they are ..." --Feminist Marilyn French, People Magazine (Percent of reported rape or near-rape incidents = .07% [The FBI's Uniform Crime Report lists for the year 1996])

"[Rape] is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which ALL MEN KEEP ALL WOMEN IN A STATE OF FEAR" [emphasis added] -- Susan Brownmiller (Against Our Will p. 6)

"Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice. Rape, originally defined as abduction, became marriage by capture. Marriage meant the taking was to extend in time, to be not only use of but possession of, or ownership." -- Andrea Dworkin.

"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." -- Andrea Dworkin

"Romance is rape embellished with meaningful looks." Andrea Dworkin in the Philadelphia Inquirer, May 21, 1995..

"Under patriarchy, no woman is safe to live her life, or to love, or to mother children. Under patriarchy, every woman is a victim, past, present, and future. Under patriarchy, every woman's daughter is a victim, past, present, and future. Under patriarchy, every woman's son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman," Andrea Dworkin, Liberty, p.58..

"One can know everything and still be unable to accept the fact that sex and murder are fused in the male consciousness, so that the one without the imminent possibly of the other is unthinkable and impossible." Andrea Dworkin, Letters from a War Zone, p. 21..

"In every century, there are a handful of writers who help the human race to evolve. Andrea is one of them."--Gloria Steinem

"And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual [male], it may be mainly a quantitative difference." -- Susan Griffin "Rape: The All-American Crime"
(p. 86)

"When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression..." -- Sheila Jeffrys

"I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire." -- Robin Morgan, "Theory and Practice: Pornography and Rape" in "Going to Far," 1974.

"Who cares how men feel or what they do or whether they suffer? They have had over 2000 years to dominate and made a complete hash of it. Now it is our turn. My only comment to men is, if you don't like it, bad luck - and if you get in my way I'll run you down." -- Letter to the Editor: "Women's Turn to Dominate" -- Signed: Liberated Women, Boronia -- Herald-Sun, Melbourne, Australia - 9 February 1996

Toward a Feminist Theory of the State. Catharine A. MacKinnon, 1989, First Harvard University Press (paperback in 1991) [a legal treatise comparing and contrasting feminism with COMMUNISM AND SOCIALISM]

"It is not only men convicted of rape who believe that the only thing they did that was different from what men do all the time is get caught."

"If sexuality is central to women's definition and forced sex is central to sexuality, rape is indigenous, not exceptional, to women's social condition."

"Under law, rape is a sex crime that is not regarded as a crime when it looks like sex. The law, speaking generally, defines rape as intercourse with force or coercion and without consent., Like sexuality under male supremacy, this definition assumes the sadomasochistic definition of sex: intercourse with force or coercion can be or become consensual."

"Compare victims' reports of rape with women's reports of sex. They look a lot alike....[T]he major distinction between intercourse (normal) and rape (abnormal) is that the normal happens so often that one cannot get anyone to see anything wrong with it." Catherine MacKinnon, quoted in Christina Hoff Sommers, "Hard-Line Feminists Guilty of Ms.-Representation," Wall Street Journal, November 7, 1991.

"The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist" -- Ti-Grace Atkinson "Amazon Odyssey" (p. 86)

"In a patriarchal society all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a gr

[Nifty's posted question was cut off at the original site.]


A Reply to Nifty (and to doodlebugjimv12, who is never far behind or ahead of him)

The men who are posting and reposting, copying and pasting the above list or similar lists of quotes from feminists don't go so far as to let us know which of the quotes are fiction and which are not and which are taken out of context and which are not. The men who post this list all over the place also don't know how to spell feminists' names, which shows a glaring level of intellectual laziness on their part.

The list above also demonstrates that the men who copy and paste it are comfortable with a willful level of ignorance on the whole matter of what feminism is (many things) and what feminists seek to accomplish (achieving full human rights and civil rights for women, and much more as well, as most womanists and feminists I know don't have one political aim, but rather a cluster of concerns that warrant different approaches and forms of resistance at different times). There is so much wrong with this list being passed around by men who hate women and men who especially hate feminists that it's difficult to know where to begin. But begin I will. First, there are many quotes that questioners such as Nifty or doodlebugjim (v1 through v12), could collect and present for review and discussion. Here are some of the quotes that antifeminist men don't want you to see, because it will spoil their patriarchal pity party:

"The strongest lesson I can teach my son is the same lesson I teach my daughter: how to be who he wishes to be for himself." -- radical feminist Audre Lorde

"People can find eroticism in relations with people whom they respect and whom they see as equals." -- radical feminist Catharine MacKinnon

One of the most quoted lines by Marilyn French is one from her novel, The Women's Room. It reads, "all men are rapists, and that's all they are. They rape us with their eyes, their laws and their codes."

What is next was quoted from her in 2007 and is NOT from her fictional characters:

"Most men are on our side. They like their lives better than their fathers' lives. They like being involved with their children. They like having a better relationship with their women." -- radical feminist Marilyn French

"I believe that all human beings are equal. I believe that no one has the right to authority over anyone else." -- radical feminist Marilyn French

"For me, forgiveness and compassion are always linked: how do we hold people accountable for wrongdoing and yet at the same time remain in touch with their humanity enough to believe in their capacity to be transformed?" -- radical feminist bell hooks

"No one deserves brutality because of what they are, there condition of birth." -- radical feminist Andrea Dworkin

"Truth is harder to bear than ignorance, and so ignorance is valued more--also because the status quo depends on it; but love depends on self-knowledge and self-knowledge depends on being able to bear the truth." -- radical feminist Andrea Dworkin

"Love is a combination of care, commitment, knowledge, responsibility, respect and trust." -- radical feminist bell hooks (Communion: The Female Search for Love)

"As all advocates of feminist politics know most people do not understand sexism or if they do they think it is not a problem. Masses of people think that feminism is always and only about women seeking to be equal to men. And a huge majority of these folks think feminism is anti-male. Their misunderstanding of feminist politics reflects the reality that most folks learn about feminism from patriarchal mass media." -- radical feminist bell hooks

Why don't these antifeminist trolls also quote or cite radical lesbian feminist Audre Lorde's essay on her love and hopes for her son (in Sister Outsider), or radical feminist Alice Walker's deeply compassionate open letter to Tiger Woods from her blog? Why don't they quote bell hooks from her book on love between men and women? Instead the misogynists and antifeminists pick and choose quotes, again, some from fiction, to arrive at this over-copied and re-pasted list.

There are easily one thousand times that many quotes by men saying vehemently disgusting and vile, violent, and completely disrespectful things about "all women". Why don't these MRAs quote from those works of fiction and state the views of misogynist men? Because that wouldn't make this pack of distortions work out so well for their biased agenda.

Let's visit a few of the quotes by men, throughout history. These are just a tiny sampling demonstrating that men's hatred of women is centuries old and exists across many societies. I will post the source of these quotes later in this response. And keep in mind, these men occupied positions of significant political leadership and social influence with actual power to control institutions and societies that radical feminists, as yet, have never had.

[20 February 2011 update: The following quotes were found at the website of Gaia Charis, here:, which is also linked to below in the "Source(s)" section. Thank you, Gaia Charis, for all of your wonderful work!!]

Jack Holland details the ways in which both the Greeks and Hesiod viewed the figure of Pandora.

 ‘The Greek phrase used to describe her, kalon kakon, means ‘the beautiful evil’.’

In Hesiod’s words...
 ‘From her comes all the race of womankind
 The deadly female race and tribe of wives
 Who live with mortal men and do them harm.’

Tertullion, one of the founding fathers of the Catholic Church, famously harangued the archetypal feminine thus...
‘And do you know that you are Eve? God’s sentence hangs over all your sex and His punishment weighs down upon you. You are the devil’s gateway, it was you who first violated the forbidden tree and broke God’s law. You coaxed your way around man whom the devil had not the force to attack. With what ease you shattered that image of God: man!’

 ‘Woman is a stupid vessel over whom man must always hold power, for the man is higher and better than she is.’   Martin Luther, Protestant Reformationist. (NOT Martin Luther King!)

 ‘A man with a hundred tongues who lived for a century would still not be able to complete the task of describing the vices and defects of a woman.’  Mahabharata, Hindu.

Georg Hegel, wrote in his ‘Philosophy of Right’...
 ‘Women are certainly capable of learning, but they are not made for the higher forms of science, such as philosophy...Women acquire learning – we know not how – almost as if by breathing ideas, more by living really than by actually taking hold of knowledge.’

Friedrich Nietzsche said that...
‘When a woman inclines to learning, there is usually something wrong with her sex apparatus.’

And it lurches into the twentieth century with the words of Otto Weininger on the absolute nothingness of women...

‘Women have no existence and no essence, they are not, they are nothing, Mankind occurs as male or female, as something or nothing...the meaning of woman is to be meaningless. She represents negation, the opposite pole from the Godhead, the other possibility of humanity....A woman cannot grasp that one must act from principle; as she has no continuity she does not experience the necessity for logical support of her mental processes...she may be regarded as ‘logically insane’.    From ‘Sex and Character’, 1906.

Dr. Max Baff, Professor of Psychology, in 1910:
‘All women are fundamentally savage, and the suffragist movement is simply an outbreak of emotional insanity.’

‘Women who say no do not always mean no. It is not just a question of saying no, it is a question of how she says it, how she shows and makes it clear. If she doesn’t want it she only has to keep her legs shut and she would not get it without force.’  Judge David Wild, 1982.

And here's another bit of "brilliance" by Martin Luther:
‘Men have broad shoulders and narrow hips, and accordingly they possess intelligence. Women have narrow shoulders and broad hips. Women ought to stay at home; the way they were created indicates this, for they have broad hips and a wide fundament to sit upon, keep house and bed and raise children.’

‘The chief distinction in the intellectual powers of the two sexes is shown by man attaining to a higher eminence, in whatever he takes up, than woman can attain – whether requiring deep thought, reason, or imagination, or merely the use of senses and hands...’  Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man.

I haven't even tapped the vast body of "great" literature, exposing all the quotes from such famous misogynists as Norman Mailer and Ernest Hemingway. I haven't even shown images of woman-hating mass produced by men like Larry Flynt of Hustler and Bob Guccione of Penthouse. I haven't gone near all the rapes women offline that men film and put online for men's entertainment. I haven't begun to quote what all those men have to say about women and especially feminists that is disgustingly pro-rape and virulently woman-hating.

Why do men who post and repost the list above completely ignore the much longer list of misogynist quotes from famous and infamous men? Because it wouldn't have the effect they are looking for: to get you to believe something without having to think beyond reading a few quotes.

This is the antifeminist misogynists' aim: to get people to believe their lies rather than believe what radical feminists actually do in their activist work. You won't hear much from these MRA trolls about what feminists actually have done to make the world a better, more sane and humane place. They'll only reveal a few quotes by a handful of women with far more reason to be pissed off for men's gross mistreatment of women for millennia. Men's disdain or disrespect for women has no such explanation.

What men who post these quotes can do is post a pack of misinformation quotes, with all manner of typos and distortions. What they cannot do is engage intelligently with the writings of feminists--whole essays and whole books. (Hell, even whole paragraphs!) Sad, but true. The last link, below, is a discussion between an MRA character and a profeminist man, addressing the flawed and distorted thinking and biases of men who don't understand what or why feminists are working for women's human and civil rights. The next to last link is a discussion about the myth of man-hating and the truth about woman-hating.



  1. I saw you didn't have any comments, and I just wanted to say keep up the good work sister! Brilliant post. There are lots of us out here listening!!

  2. Thank you for the kind and supportive words, Queen Cals.

    (I'm a profeminist boy, but am always honored when someone mistakes my writing for that of a feminist woman's. Ever since I was a little one, and other boys would call me "girl"--I always felt flattered, and couldn't understand why they thought they were insulting me! lol)

  3. Excellent work Julian, thanks very much for this helpful resource. The Doodle infestation is a long-running and well-known one and it's good to see a confirmation of what so many of us have been pointing out for so long.

    The links are great too!

  4. Hi ladorno,

    I'm so glad you wrote, and hope the link to this post will get placed on any discussion where the MRA Trolls are doing this.

    I hope they are challenged with the truth of their very selective and skewed perspectives and "facts".

    They are an embarrassment to humanity and ought to hang their heads in shame for blaming women for what men do: HATE.

  5. Thank you for your informative article. It is great to find a blog site where one can enter without instantly feeling attacked. I am glad there are profeminists males that post intelligent blogs that utilize critical thinking skills. This doodlebug and his minions post their hatred and lies in yahoo.answers all the time. Glad you have issues a warning about the destructive, cunning nature.

  6. Welcome QueenD,

    I hope you visit often and share your own views here.

    Thank you so much for your comment! :)

  7. Hi Julian,

    I just found your blog. Thank you for your excellent work and wonderful commitment to ending oppression.

    Thank you for this article. It is very well done and thought out. I really like your comparison between the power that a relatively small number of recent feminist writers and thinkers have had relative to the entire history of patriarchal power.

    I was horrified to see the likes of (I'll call him) 'diddle' and his pals in YahooAnswers last year, duping so many people about feminism on there with his lists of out-of-context quotes. (Worse, the censors at YahooAnswers strongly favor the misogynists, and delete feminist questions on the grounds that those aren't respectful! Even if the questions are exact mirrors of the sexist questions being posed by men on there.)

    I didn't want to take my precious time to fact-check any of diddle's lists (many years ago I realized the trap of taking my time responding to misogynists) but am grateful to you for doing that work.

    Because of the great number of people being misled, by ommission and lack of context by his lists, what you have done needed to be done. Sadly, I've since found MRA sites with his lists, and the lists have also found their way onto YouTube, where some young women are now reading these lists in videos! On YouTube, you may have seen the video, "Radical Feminist Statements," by MarinalsTEHSEX, a young woman misled about feminism by these lists.

    Because YouTube is so widely viewed, and is more accessible and convenient than reading articles, would you please consider posting a YouTube video of yourself reading this response? It could be a reply to Marinals' video. Perhaps it could be in two or three video segments. I think this would be an effective way to have your response reach more people, which would be very helpful for peoples' consideration of feminism, and their willingness to learn more about it and to consider what feminists, and profeminists, have to say.

    Thanks again for your great work.

  8. Hi and welcome, plantwalks,

    I'd consider it but for a couple of problems: there are MRAs who would come after me, and I'm disabled and don't make public appearances, even on YouTube. Part of the reason for that is I think the women of color I support on this blog need to be heard, not so much a white guy. But, I am supportive if someone wants to read my post in a YouTube video, as long as they credit the source and list the website for this blog.

    I'd like to communicate by email with anyone who would be willing to do that, in part about making sure they are not vulnerable to MRA backlash.

    I'm also fine with someone posting any links from here @ A.R.P. to YouTube, such as under any antifeminist video, if a man is the culprit. There are, now, it seems, a few radical feminists on YouTube, and one of them visits this blog, so maybe I can work something out with her, unless you yourself would be interested. It's your idea, after all!!

    Thanks for suggesting it.

    I generally keep a low profile, other than posting here and putting comments on other sites where antifeminists spew their vile misogyny.

  9. plantwalks,

    You said, "many years ago I realized the trap of taking my time responding to misogynists"
    I hear you there...........OOOHHH DO I!!!

    I don't know your experience, exactly, but my experience with trying to respond to the members of the "Manosphere" (that's their term for the various Men's Rights groups, not mine) is to commence from the vantage point that I am dealing with logical, rational, reasonable beings (first big mistake!!), since they will tell you that those are the higher mind qualities that men possess and women do not. Not long thereafter, I find myself being sucked into a downward spiralling vortex of non-sequiturs, circular reasoning, hypocrisy and shaming language (to name only a few) try pointing this out, and the collective denial begins coupled with the accusations of projection. And then comes the "where's the hard evidence of {topic in question}. It never ceases to amaze me how a group comprised of many who have NO PROBLEM believing that "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" is self-evident absolutely CANNOT conceive of how "The patriarches of the past and present never allowed such behavior [such behaviour being women endlessly bitching, whining and moaning about their situation]. If the average woman whined too much about her situation, she got promptly bitch-slapped by her husband/father and told to shut her mouth" is oppressive to women without demanding proof of how it's oppressive; the oppressiveness of this type of "normal" behaviour is, apparently, NOT self-evident.

    The more frustrated I became in trying to explain (still working under the hopelessly optimistic assumption that SOMEONE was rational enough to see that there was at least SOME validity to my points), the more time I spent indulging in this exercise in futility. My work and personal life began suffering terribly as I realized that these people really are hell-bent on world domination at all costs. I had to withdraw from attempting any further discourse with these wanna-be-kings-of-the-world because they truly do not wish to see any viewpoint that might deviate even a little from their narrow focus.

    They mention the proliferation of "misandry in the media", and you point out the prevalence of pornography. Well, that turns out to be far more of a man-eating (as opposed to woman-eating) machine, too, in that the women's movement doesn't appear to have any empathy or lift a finger to help those poor hapless souls who are addicted to porn. And don't forget that, in society's view, men are of such little value that, for the most part, they remain faceless in porn; they are reduced to a disembodied penis because men themselves, as persons, don't matter to our current society. Yes, they really do say things like that.

    Yes, the Patriarchal Pity Party boggles the mind. And to Julian, I would like to say a HUGE "THANK YOU!!" for being an island of sanity in this sea of..... {I don't know, insert whatever word you want here}

  10. You're welcome, Patti.

    this sea of... patriarchal palien paradigmatic preposterousness? ;)

    (And, I hope plantwalks replies to you here.)

  11. this sea of... patriarchal palien paradigmatic preposterousness? ;)

    Yeah, THAT'S it!!!

    I hope plantwalks replies to me, too.... and any others who might care to respond.

    And to anyone who wants to search the MRA blogs where "Patti" has reponded, well, that's just one of many pseudonyms I use when creating accounts (keeping identity theft and all in mind, y'know), so it's not very likely that you'll find any.

  12. Thank you for pointing out what liars doody and his jackals are. I see them posting on yahoo answers all the time and what is laughable is that they also post their blogs sites as proof of what they are saying. To me this is truly the definition of delusional. Thanks for an amazing site where truth triumphs. Please take the suggestion of having one of the feminists refute some of these lists on YouTube.

  13. Thanks for you comment, QueenD!

    I welcome any feminists or profeminists making videos reading my blog posts for YouTube or Vimeo, as long as the reader links to this blog, and to the post specifically, and as long as the post is not edited or excerpted--which would violate the copyright terms of this blog's writings.

    But I hope some men, especially, read the contents of some of these posts on video and post them to YouTube. Guys??? More men need to take a profeminist stance publicly.

  14. Excellent post about the irritating tendency to just copy/paste a list of misrepresented quotes... tragically, it tends to work. I will be hanging around this blog, for sure.

    On a slight tangent... I'm a woman who's been a bit agnostic about using the term 'feminist' (I know this can push some feminists' hot button but it's not because of fear, it's for practical reasons - the word can alienate and I'd rather build bridges, regardless of the reasons for the word's image problem it does have one and it gets in the way)

    HOWEVER, if the MRA and anti-feminist lobby are doing anything, it's pushing me (and others) further towards actively embracing feminism as a movement - the exact opposite of what they want. When I first found a MRA forum, I thought fair enough, I care about men's rights as much as women's - but they don't seem to care about men's rights. They care about bashing feminists. (For example I've seen sneering at male rape/abuse victims who are told to 'man up' by seemingly the same people who claim that help for rape/abuse victims is only available to women.) While part of me would still prefer to be called 'humanist' - I'm starting to see that the people who do the most for women AND men's rights, who are fighting the patriarchy which harms both sexes, are among the feminists.

    I see you call yourself 'profeminist' rather than feminist. Any reason, just out of curiosity?

    Sorry this was long and rambling.

  15. Hi onlysleeping,

    As radical white Western feminist Catharine A. MacKinnon has noted, most women doing "feminist" work around the world do not identify as "feminist" and the important thing is the work, the resistance to male domination and violence, the building of better societies in which all humans are respected. The important thing is that women not feel or be alone in doing this work. And the important thing is that there are sustained, supported campaigns to assist women's efforts to obtain and secure human rights and gender justice.

    As you state, Men's Rights Activsts aren't among the population doing that work. They are, as you say, too busy putting down women who are human rights activists. Sad (and self-serving) but true.

    Please send me any discussions by email (the address is more or less in the top right of the blog) where you've seen male child abuse and rape survivors made fun of or told to "man up".

    On the matter of profeminist vs. feminist, please see this post: Ought Men Call Ourselves Feminist or Profeminist? A question worth asking without an easy answer on the subject.

    I am very glad you left a comment and welcome you to do so again!

  16. Whoah ! Whilst this is a good article Julian Real has lifted a HUGE chunk from my work and embedded it in his text ! Without attributing it to me in the text. Naughty Julian..would you mind putting this right please ? Gaia Charis of....

  17. Hi Gaia,

    Do you see the link--the exact one you sent to me in your comment--in the "Source(s)" section of the post above?

    I sure hope so. Would you like it to be moved farther up into the post? I'll also put it up higher, but it is there. I promise you!! :)