I do not WANT you to just concede and agree. David for ME this is more than some debate, and it is certainly not just an argument that I want to win. I want to point by point make crystal clear to you YOUR privilege and YOUR ignorance to female issues. I want you to walk away from this discussion and think “Why didn’t I see that saying that women need to take defense classes puts the responsibility on WOMEN to stop rape? Why didn’t I think that it would be MORE PRODUCTIVE to create classes on sexual harassment, rape, and coercion for men as a BETTER means to stop men from raping women? How can I change that, how can I address my male privilege so that I don’t view everything through THAT lens?” I do not want you to simply agree with me, glad you do, but that does NOTHING for me or for women who are raped. It is most important that you address, consider and OWN your own male privilege so as to be accountable for it, and to make sure you filter every thought, word, deed before you proceed. It is your JOB to do so; it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to do so.
The above passage by Divine Purpose, aka A Lady Divine was copied and pasted by me from what follows below. I welcome all men to read, and reread, all of this post, as many times as it takes to "get" what she's saying. For the earlier portions of this exchange and discussion, see here.
For me, what Divine Purpose says below stands on its own as what I feel is a superb calling out of a man on his male privileges and ignorance. It angers me that women have to go to such lengths to get men to "get" and "own" the simplest things. But welcome to the world of patriarchal privilege.
David, here, get's what ought to be considered a GREAT learning opportunity to expand and deepen his humanity and consciousness. It is his words that are in quotes. Divine Purpose's comments follow each quoted portion of what David wrote to her.
Does he learn from this? Stay tuned.
-- Julian (ROCK ON LADY DIVINE!!)
Part 1 of 5 of my response:
[David wrote:] “So I'm not sure if it is a pro-male system as much as a pro-white male system. That means that there are plenty of men of color who go to jail for crimes they do not commit, see Troy Davis as a prominent recent example of this.
I am of the impression that you are a white male, so maybe you think your proposed idea will not affect you, because you will not rape/abuse a woman. But a POC male cannot afford the same type of thinking, as they are falsely accused of crimes all the time.”
David, up until this point I’ve been very nice and very kind to you, even in your ignorance of your privilege. I feel very strongly that much of what you are saying stems from ignorance and white supremacy, and I also feel very strongly that you’re largely unaware of it, which is why I have been nicer to you than I would be to most men. That said, gloves are off and swords are drawn, punches will not be pulled, and I request, in advance, that you listen to what I am saying, and not assume it is an attack on you. Disclaimer over.
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 15, 2009 12:50:00 PM EDT
aladydivine said...
Part 2
What you just said above is VERY typical of a male, and of most of our society. Men of color, primarily black men, issues ALWAYS eclipse female issues, and especially black female issues. Take Skippy gates for example. Fool mouths off at a police officer and the nation is a buzz about race… a Boston Police officer responds to Yvonne Abraham (a writer for the Boston Globe) about her article on the situation. Yvonne is a WHITE female who wrote about race issues and the “struggle” Gates has had to over come to be a Harvard professor. First, that in itself is BULLSHIT because if ANYONE knows Gates or has read his writings on the so called black community you would understand that he doesn’t identify with the black struggle. Actually he trivializes it and holds a very white supremacist view on blackness and black people who aren’t middle/upper class pompous assholes like himself, but I digress. So Abraham writes a column, Officer Justin Barrett responds calling her all types of DISGUSTINGLY anti-female pejoratives, and using very inflammatory anti-black language as well. What does everyone see? They see that Barrett called Gates a banana eating jungle monkey. What they FAILED to see is that Barrett also told Abraham, an established and accomplished Journalist, that she was only good to fetch him coffee, that she was a hot little bird, and worse shows his contempt for women, his contempt for blacks, and his contempt for anyone who talks about race issues in general. Officer Barrett was working out of Mattapan Ma, in Boston which is one of the MOST predominantly Black communities in the city. But people didn’t even see that shit, all they saw was an accomplished black man being called a banana eating jungle monkey by a white officer, because black men’s issues are MORE IMPORTANT than any woman of any color’s issues. Read more on that, and my position on black male issues eclipsing ANY female’s issues here: http://aladydivine.wordpress.com/2009/07/31/apparantly-black-mens-oppression-is-more-important/
That said, you are guilty of that same crime by pointing out how MOC will be affected blah blah blah. I’m very aware of the disparity and the disgusting numbers of black men behind bars doing harsh time for shit charges, it’s a serious issue to me. It should be to anyone who isn’t racist, and white supremacist, HOWEVER it does serve a male supremacist agenda to ALWAYS allude to, and discuss black male issues while IGNORAING black female, and any female, realities and issues. You pointing out how the justice system overwhelmingly impacts black men is done so at the expense of women, of all women. I see how it could need to be addressed, and how it is important that we keep in mind that systemic racism and white supremacy STILL EXIST, yes, great wonderful, however, you say this and place your primary focus on MOC. I’m unimpressed by this… and I’m a WOC. I’ll delve more into this further down.
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 15, 2009 12:51:00 PM EDT
aladydivine said...
Part 3:
“ALD responded and agreed, but also added that I was not focusing on male responsibilities and that classes that taught them why rape/violence against women is bad would be good as well. I conceded that, and agreed.
I do not WANT you to just concede and agree. David for ME this is more than some debate, and it is certainly not just an argument that I want to win. I want to point by point make crystal clear to you YOUR privilege and YOUR ignorance to female issues. I want you to walk away from this discussion and think “Why didn’t I see that saying that women need to take defense classes puts the responsibility on WOMEN to stop rape? Why didn’t I think that it would be MORE PRODUCTIVE to create classes on sexual harassment, rape, and coercion for men as a BETTER means to stop men from raping women? How can I change that, how can I address my male privilege so that I don’t view everything through THAT lens?” I do not want you to simply agree with me, glad you do, but that does NOTHING for me or for women who are raped. It is most important that you address, consider and OWN your own male privilege so as to be accountable for it, and to make sure you filter every thought, word, deed before you proceed. It is your JOB to do so; it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to do so.
“My goal is to protect the innocent. Innocent men from a punishment that cannot be reversed in light of new information, innocent women from rape/other types of abuse. I am not sure how this is only about protecting innocent men, maybe you could clarify?”
Only recently did you even mention WOMEN when you were talking about innocence. Prior to here, and perhaps in an email to me (but only after I pointed it out to you) you didn’t put innocent and woman in the same sentence. In prior conversations innocent=man as your point of contention, it wasn’t until I asked you were not women and girls innocent? Is a rape victim not innocent? So the point HERE is to yet again get you to see your privilege and ignorance as I believe that your failure to acknowledge the innocence of girls and women who are raped to be a product of your privilege. If your goal is to protect the innocent, period, and there isn’t a presence of thought or a bias towards men, then why was your ONLY solution to defending women and girls one that places responsibility on THEIR shoulders? If your goal is to protect the innocent, why do you continually mention innocent men when we’re talking about MEN WHO HAVE INDEED raped women (as with the fucker in the article on my blog)? Think DEEPLY about that, and when I say think I really mean that. You men are rarely able to think without an instant need to rebut, I do not want to debate you, I do not want you to go on the defense, I want you to THINK and to consider these points without needing to defend yourself. No one is saying you’re a rapist; no one is trying to call you anything negative. What I am trying to do is to get you to see, own, acknowledge and deal with your privilege. If you respond with the same nonsense after I have very clearly spelled it out for you it will be very telling of the depths to which your privilege/ignorance runs. That is not an indictment on your character, it is the truth about men raised in patriarchy and the way we normalize male privilege in this culture in such a way that men don’t even SEE it.
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 15, 2009 12:51:00 PM EDT
aladydivine said...
Part 4:
“The only point of contention I had was that me arguing to defend men who did not rape was not me putting them over innocent women (I felt that was a result of me only referring to men, which was a result of the points I addressed leading me to only responding to points about men). I also suggested a way to protect innocent women, through self defense classes.”
I would first suggest that you do some reading on rape, and on how victims respond. I can tell you that when I had 3 men chase me home because I refused to go round the corner with them the very last thing I was thinking about was the 6in knife I kept in my coat pocket. ALL I could think of was “fuckin pick your feet up and put them down girl, get your keys ready, faster, faster, don’t turn around it will slow you down, breathe, pay attention to the sounds of their footsteps you will know if their gaining on you, ok there are two to the left of you and one right behind you, oh shit one on the left is trying to get ahead of you so you’re surrounded… would it be better to run to the main street where there are more people? What if you run to the main street and NO ONE HELPS You? Make it look like you’re going straight and at the last second bang that left they’ll never see it coming. God help me please I don’t want to be hurt tonight, ok up the stairs, key in door QUICK FUCKIN CLOSE THE DOOR.” After getting safely behind one door and going through the second door to the stairs I collapsed on the stairs out of breath, heart racing, tears streaming down my face, scared out of my mind, wondering if I should call the cops, and then I ran up the stairs to my apartment, of course I didn’t turn the lights on, because they were throwing their bodies into the fuckin door. So typical of a man, who will NEVER in his LIFE have to face the fear of what it means to be a woman being preyed on by men to say take self defense classes. Been there done that, and NONE Of it would’ve helped me in that situation. I didn’t even REMEMBER any of it. This isn’t fuckin Kill Bill! This is real life! And as a woman who has gotten into her fair share of fights with men, I would’ve been no match for THREE MEN hell bent on getting what they wanted from me that night. I was just trying to go home after a long day at work and a night class that went from 7-9pm. But yeah, thank you for throwing us poor womyn folk a bone by saying we should be taught how to defend ourselves against men. How does that address incest? Or Date rape? Or when a woman is raped by her friend? I’m going to say something publicly that I never thought I would… when my “friend” preyed on me, when he waited until I was so fucked up and vulnerable that I wouldn’t be able to resist him, when he got closer and closer to me with the goal of fucking me, I wasn’t able to fight him. I wasn’t in any way prepared for what he did to me… you never are. I don’t care how kick ass you are, how strong and empowered you are, when someone preys on your weakness, and waits until something tragic has happened to you to make their move you freeze. You don’t think of the moves you learned in some damn class… you introvert, you steel yourself emotionally and you prepare for the worst. But of course, a man full off of his privilege would think that he’s “done something” grand by saying self defense classes for women means he acknowledges our innocence. It speaks more to your IGNORANCE and the lack of knowledge you have on rape, and victim responses than anything else.
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 15, 2009 12:52:00 PM EDT
aladydivine said...
Part 5:
“Since the basis of my argument is that it is better to let ten guilty go free than to punish one innocent, I expect you to disagree with me… If you believe that I am saying, a few innocent men are worth more than many innocent women, I am trying to tell you I would not.”
And here is the most male supremacist thing you’ve said to date. Of COURSE to YOU it is better, and my anger wants to tell you to fuck off for being so ignorant to the pain that inflicts on women like me who have been victimized and who have watched their attacker go FREE. How the hell do you think you’re not saying a few innocent men are worth more than many innocent women when you also believe that it is “better to let ten guilty go free than to punish one innocent?” To let 10 guilty men go free is to sentence countless women and girls to victimization. It is to put innocent men over innocent unsuspecting unprotected women and girls and I deeply resent you for saying that. I am enraged in a way I cannot even begin to describe to you cordially, for DARING to say you’re concerned about innocent women and girls then spit that filth about 10 guilty men freed being “better” than 1 innocent punished. How painfully MALE of you to say so, how ignorant, privileged and FUCKED UP of you to say something like that, particularly on a feminist woman’s blog with NO KNOWLEDGE of what her reality is, and with NO CONCERN for what such a comment could and would mean for women who read her blog who have been raped, then further victimized by the “justice” system only to see her attacker walk free. I don’t think I can even attempt to address anymore of your ignorance right now, because I am so fuckin angry at the level of contempt you show for women and the camaraderie you show with men. You are supporting rape in that statement whether you acknowledge it or not.
“If that is disrespectful to you, that’s too bad, but that is a reflection on you seeing the worst in people, not me.”
Yet another privileged statement from you David. You did that same thing to me remember? I was “attacking” you when I pointed out male privilege and the typical arguments male supremacists make when talking about holding men accountable for raping women and girls. It’s not about Julian seeing the worst in people, it’s him seeing the TRUTH in people, and particularly men like you.
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 15, 2009 12:52:00 PM EDT
