Monday, June 28, 2010

BEHOLD SEXISM-IN-ACTION: When MEN do it, it's called Telling The Truth about Women. When WOMEN do it, it's called "Being a Misandrist" ... go figure

 [image is from here]

[Please also see the follow-up post to this one, SEXISM-IN-ACTION, Part 2, by clicking *here*]

I chose this image because it speaks to a truth about misogyny and sexism: they are always social phenomena. They are never individual-impacting only. And it takes many men to support sexism for it to exist. Men's views of women EXIST as truth. Even when they are SEXIST. Women's truths about men are never debated by men as rational views of reality. Men systematically and collectively deny women's realities even EXIST.

Here's the deal, folks. Het guys who have been turned away by a heterosexual woman get together to consider how psychotic she is. Women who have been turned away by a man get to wonder "What did I do wrong?"

This is social reality. This is patriarchal reality. This is sexism and misogyny.

But what if the woman DOESN'T ask this of herself, and, instead, draws the conclusion, accurately, that the guy is sexist and not worth her time and energy? Then, according the "rejected" het man, she's psychotic. Het men cannot even imagine why it might be that a woman would cut off contact with them when they are sexist in unconscious ways, even while men do it to women all the damn time without calling EACH OTHER psychotic.

Het men make it a homosocial practice to gather and conspire to mischaracterise women in misogynistic ways, that the men mistake as "telling the truth about her". They, as men, have the power to name reality. So when two or more of them gather and agree about "what a woman is", then "she is it", according to them. Not subjectively; not from their own possibly sexist point of view. It becomes objective TRUTH (to them). And when the het men are challenged on their sexism, on their misogyny, for doing exactly what is described above and evidenced below, they are likely to want to silence the critic rather than learn more about themselves.

So, here we have a het man who goes on his Facebook page to misogynistically (mis)characterise a woman as... well... you'll see. And a woman comes over to engage him in discussion about his sexist behavior. And a guy comes by to concur with him--to compare notes, and to shore up their similarly misogynistic conclusions--conclusions they'd NEVER draw about any HET MEN who do what the woman does who they are publicly criticising. And when this woman calls him out, he ignores her. What do you call that? I call it sexism and misogyny. And when a male, me, comes to the site to call out their sexism, what does the het man do with that? He purges it from "reality". He censors out that perspective because as a male, I too have the power to name reality, so he needs to make my reality "disappear".

Let's ALL have a looksee, shall we? (And note the updates at the end.)

Here's the URL, and we may note which comments have since been deleted:
http://www.facebook.com/andraewilliams?v=wall&story_fbid=130375700326342

This is some basic public information about the man whose Facebook page we are about to visit. I've edited out his birthday and home city, as it's not relevant. He's in his late twenties, though.

Relationship Status:
Single
Political Views:
Libconserveralative
Religious Views:
Ateu

Andrão Brasileiro Fanático

Andrão Brasileiro Fanático is thankful for all the SANE women out there...in the midst of all the crazies with bipolar tendencies, you all are a breath of fresh air...

Friday at 10:18pm · · 
2 people like this.

Angela Fogle
How U know I was bi-polar...lol I'm sane,because Geminis get a pass!
Friday at 10:46pm ·

Andrão Brasileiro Fanático
You are definitely sane...lol..I was talking about some crazy black ultra feminist chick who sent ME a friend request a few days ago, started flirting with me thru PM, telling me she hasnt had sex in 18 months and wanted me to "mow her lawn", and then deleted and blocked me today (for what, i do not know)...

LOL...now what would you call that? She's a special case isn't she?
Friday at 11:10pm ·

Angela Fogle
lmao...U & your women...tell her come holla @ U after 4yrs...smh She'll add u again...she's going through one of her celibate mood...give her 5dys..lol
Saturday at 1:34am ·

Mo B Smith
Y THANK YOU "WINK". LOL
Saturday at 2:01am ·

Channel Coates
Mow her lawn? lol! OMG!
Saturday at 9:38am ·

Andrão Brasileiro Fanático
@Angela - She can go to hell for all I care..:)

@Mo - You're welcome..:)

@Channel - Yeah..I'm in the lawncare business so she was trying to make a sexual joke (I don't mow lawns though)...
Saturday at 9:47am ·

Terry L. Shed
@ Andrao - I think that same woman (nameless) did the same one to me.
Saturday at 10:47am ·

Terry L. Shed
*thing not one...does her initals start with an "A"? LOL....Never mind cus I know it does. LOL.
Saturday at 10:48am ·

Angela Fogle
Drae there is no such place as hell...remember??? luv yah!
Saturday at 11:44am ·

Nicki Rivers
Don't guys do this to women all the time? Don't guys disappear on women? Don't guys suddenly stop talking to a woman they've met for no reason? In fact a dude I'd met back in Feb, was talking up a storm to me, saying all these things, and then suddenly he disappeared like a puff of smoke for no reason. In fact women make up names for dudes who act like this. They call them dream weavers, ghosts, etc... Guys do this to women ALL the time, and women spend their time calling and wondering what happened with the guy, is he dead, did he get abducted by aliens? Why hasn't he called? I didn't do any of that. I just shrugged it off and went about my business. I figured this guy did me a favor by showing his colors on the phone, (since we hadn't actually met) and I was better off.
Every one of my gf's have a guy 'ghost' story. Why is it when dudes act like this with women, women sort of accept it as a guy running his usual game'. But on the rare occasion that a guy is on the receiving end of this type of treatment from a woman, the woman has to be mentally unstable?
So are dudes who meet women and disappear on them for no reason bipolar, mentally unstable? Instead of the 'He's just not that into you' excuse? 

Andrão Brasileiro Fanático
@Angela - Figure of speech hon...figure of speech...

@Terry - Why leave her name out? Name the broad dude...her REAL name is [name omitted by me, Julian], but her facebook names are AGANJU AXE, and [name omitted by me, Julian]. Another black atheist friend of mine named DaRohn Sercey warned me about her, when her pic showed up in his newsfeed that I added her. He told "watch out, because she's crazy", but I gave her the benefit of the doubt, because I don't like judging people without having good reason to do so...but he was right...lol..
Saturday at 5:28pm ·

Andrão Brasileiro Fanático
@Nicki - Mabe they are mentally unstable and or bipolar....I don't use the latter term in passing. The woman I am referring has EXTREME highs, and EXTREME lows..trust me. Like a light switch..

@Paulette - You're welcome...:)
Saturday at 5:30pm ·

Terry L. Shed
Yup...that's her. I had been seeing her post for a while. They were kinda...outragous...(even about how she a dick expert...but yet is celebaite)I took it for what it was worth...every body IS intilted to their opinion. I rant about religon on my page all the time but I don't discourage conversation and dialouge; how else you supposed to learn? Plus, I though it was just a phase and she didn't 'really' mean half the stuff she posted and was just upset at someting....but nobody is pissed at the male gender for 3-4 months stright to the point you want them to die...like seriously die! lol. She posted a status about her not being about to eat becasue some guy/guys made her upset. I commented saying she Shouldn't let people get her that upset. ...no response. Later, she posted a comment about All men being toxic and trouble and just dogging men to the fulliest on Facebook and I comment saying Wait...what exactly did "I" do, that's not a fair statement (...I should have known better). She responed saying Guys speak for me and I need to holla at them...and leave her alone! and deleted me. I later read her blogs and realized that becasue I am in fact a man and I questioned/challenged her opinon on her Facebook page is the reason she delted me. Speaking with extensive knowledge in psychology...when I further read her blogs it was clear that she does in fact have some issues. I have a good idea 'why' it's that way...but withought having the oppurtunity to talk to her...I can only speculate.

Aganue Axe...shm.
Saturday at 7:02pm ·

Nicki Rivers
@ Terry " rant about religon on my page all the time but I don't discourage conversation and dialouge; how else you supposed to learn? I later read her blogs and realized that becasue I am in fact a man and I questioned/challenged her opinon on her Facebook page is the reason she delted me."

Why did you feel the need to go on 'her page' and question and challenge ' her views especially after you've read 'her stance?' Do you have a right to expect other people to treat their facebook viewpoints the way you treat yours? Do you feel because you 'Are in fact a man' that you are entitled to challenging 'her viewpoints? Would you go on a Christian's person's page and question their views about their beliefs after they've already made it clear that what they believe isn't up for debate? Isn't that disrespectful to someone to not respect their right to their own viewpoints on their own FB page? Why feel the need to 'challenge them in the first place? Why not just let it go and be with like minded people?

Andrão Brasileiro Fanático
And that's why she's crazy...lol...She wrote on one of her notes that "her beliefs are NOT up for debate"...meaning she's a hard-headed man hater who thinks her beliefs are gospel and any man who tries to talk her out of them is a "sexist pig"...

Definitely some SERIOUS issues here...poor thing. lol.

Nicki Rivers Andrao' "And that's why she's crazy...lol...She wrote on one of her notes that "her beliefs are NOT up for debate"...meaning she's a hard-headed man hater who thinks her beliefs are gospel and any man who tries to talk her out of them is a "sexist pig"...

Hmmm This is how 'you' choose to interpret her saying, "her beliefs are not up for debate"', but does your interpretation of her saying this make what 'you think', "The Gospel" truth? or is this simply your opinion your interpretation of how 'you' chose to take what she said? Do I have to agree with your thoughts here? If I don't agree with 'your opinion/interpretation of 'My beliefs are not up for debate', are you going to say I'm crazy and all of this other stuff about me as well?
I have beliefs/standards/values that are not up for debate. Does what someone believe in (if it differs from our own beliefs/opinion) have to be up for debate? Who made that rule?

What I'm getting is that you are angry because she suddenly deleted and blocked you. (You don't really know why she did it) so you're looking to soothe your hurt feelings by putting her down. Other guys from what I've read had warned you about her because they were defriended as well. But rather than question the reasons why they were defriended, you automatically assume it's because this person, must be crazy because of course none of the other guys who were defriended couuld possibly be at fault They were just being the usual guys....Interesting.

Andrão Brasileiro Fanático
Nicki..do you know the person we are speaking about?

Secondly, I am not angry that she deleted me....amused is the better term here..I have don't even know WHY I was deleted...and I know she is a "man-hater" because I am like the umpteenth guy she has deleted...not to mention she hates Michael Eric Dyson, hates rappers and rap music, hates this, hates that...

If you don't know this women, you shouldn't be so quick to defend her. 

Nicki Rivers
@Andrao, you and I share a mutual friend [name deleted by me, Julian] who is friends with Agjanu so I was able to look at her page through [name deleted] because I'm not blocked. But why aren't you answering any specific questions I asked you? Why are you choosing to say my viewpoints are me 'defending her'? That's interesting. Rather than looking at this from another perspective, you are attempting to tell me what "I shouldn't be doing where she is concerned' and that my viewpoints simply amount to me 'defending her'. Hmmm. Do you think that when women delete multiple men from their pages, that makes them a man hater? Could it be that they dislike the 'behavior' and not the 'man'? Does everyone have to like Michael Eric Dyson? Heck people don't like President Obama. Michael Eric Dyson doesn't like Bill Cosby, does that make him a 'man hater?

When women speak out against the things men do on a regular basis that disparages women that men don't even realize that makes them a man hater?
Does it make men a woman hater when they mistreat women? I'm asking questions that aren't getting answered.

Andrão Brasileiro Fanático
Now, if I was Aganju, and you were a man, and you came to my page with this type of interrogating, you would have been blocked hours ago. But, since I am a mature adult, who can dish out AND take criticism, I will answer your questions as succinctly as I can.

You asked alot of questions above, and some of them sound rhetorical..please specify what exactly it is you are asking me.

Go.
Saturday at 8:28pm ·

Nicki Rivers
Andrao wrote "you came to my page with this type of interrogating"

You choose to view my questions as interrogating you? lol I am asking you questions and you say I am interrogating and criticizing you. Yet you call Aganju names, what is that about? Aren't you doing the exact same thing you are accusing her of doing to you?

I am respectfully communicating with you. I'm not callling you names or any of that. Yet you feel as though I'm critiquing you and interrogating you. Why is that? Was I supposed to fall in line with 'your way' of thinking because you said so? Are women not allowed to disagree with your opinion or even share other thoughts that differ from yours?

At any rate, here are the questions again since you asked for specifics which I'd already asked. You don't have to answer them if you don't want to since you're feeling interrogated and criticized. I'm not making you feel this way, these feelings are strictly your own. I'm communicating with you, engaging in dialogue attempting to ask question that delve deeper and get you to think and see other sides of issues. All you want to do is focus on 'your anger' or amusement (as you said) about what Agjanu did to you personally.

1. are dudes who meet women and disappear on them for no reason bipolar, mentally unstable? ( I think you briefly answered, but didn't elaborate as to why you thought this).
2 Isn't that disrespectful to someone to not respect their right to their own viewpoints on their own FB page?
3. Do you think that when women delete multiple men from their pages, that makes them a man hater?
4. Does everyone have to like Michael Eric Dyson?
5. When women speak out against the things men do on a regular basis that disparages women that men don't even realize that makes them a man hater?
6. Does it make men a woman hater when they mistreat women?
7. but does your interpretation of her saying this make what 'you think', "The Gospel" truth?
8. Do I have to agree with your thoughts here?
9. Does what someone believe in (if it differs from our own beliefs/opinion) have to be up for debate? Who made that rule?
Saturday at 9:15pm · · 1 person

Andrão Brasileiro Fanático
If you insist on calling me "angry", this conversation is over. Ok? One thing I do not tolerate is presumptuous people who want to TELL me how I'm feeling. I am not angry at all this, I was just having a good laugh with my facebook friends by posting this status.

Now to your questions:

1) Yes, I did answer this question. I said they MAYBE mentally unstable. Bipolar? Not necessarily, because that is a whole other can of worms. Men who do that are immature males who can't respectfully tell a woman why he is no longer interested, but instead runs away like a child. And men who do this usually have something to hide. Maybe their girlfriend or wife caught them soliciting other women, and he cut the woman off cold turkey to soothe the feelings of the wife/gf. Either way, he is a fool.

2) Yes, it is disrespectful. Your own viewpoints are your own, and your facebook page is your domain. But as Terry Shed said above, you can have your viewpoints and STILL welcome a conversation or a dialogue about them. I am an atheist, and Christians come here daily to debate with me about my views. I welcome it, respectfully, knowing that they are attempting to change my mind. I don't block them, ban them, and delete them from my page for even ATTEMPTING a dialogue. Do you see the difference here with what you are talking about and what this "person" I referred to in my status did/does?

3) It depends on the reasoning. If she deletes them because they are stalking her, degrading her, belittling her, etc, then ofcourse not. But if she is deleting them because they attempt to make conversation about her extreme views, then yes, I could make a case for her being a misandrist. Maybe the "man-hater" term is too much, I accept that, but she isn't doing ANYTHING to allay my suspicions about her being this way, based on her behaviour.

4) No. Did I say everyone has to "like" him?

5) No. It is not about women speaking about men doing things that disparage women. I do that on a regular basis as well...I have two sisters, plenty of nieces, and god daughters, and I want them to grow up in a world where they are treated equal to men. But it is the WAY a woman speaks out about misogyny that makes the difference. You can do that in a way that is non-combative. Some haven't mastered that art.

6) Yes, just as it makes a person an animal hater if they are skinning cats, beating dogs, and doing other sadistic things to animals. Men who have a patterned behaviour of mistreating women are definitely misogynistic...their history betrays them.

7) No.

8) If that was a requisite for a person being on my page, again, you would have been blocked an hour ago. The fact that you haven't, already answers this question.

9) No, but it helps to be open-minded, don't you think? If a person is so stuck in their ways and their beliefs, that they won't even LISTEN to an alternative to see if there is a better way, is that a healthy way for someone to live their life?
Saturday at 9:39pm ·

Nicki Rivers
This to me sounds like a case of 'potcalling'. (pot calling the kettle black) or in your case, it's ok for you to talk about someone but they can't do it to you. Or you can dish it out but not take it. And I did acknowledge that you said you are 'amused and not angry as you said. Though imo (notice the disclaimer), your post doesn't come across as someone who is amused. But again maybe people show their amusement in different ways. How is it that you can make a judgement/critique about" what you think" Aganju is feeling, but you get upset when someone tells you how 'they think you feel'?

Andrao wrote: "" One thing I do not tolerate is presumptuous people who want to TELL me how I'm feeling".

Andrao posted the below comments in reference to Agjanu's character and about how 'he thinks 'she feels':

" The woman I am referring has EXTREME highs, and EXTREME lows..trust me. Like a light switch.. ".in the midst of all the crazies with bipolar tendencies,...I was talking about some crazy black ultra feminist chick...Name the broad dude..."And that's why she's crazy...lol."..." I know she is a "man-hater"...meaning she's a hard-headed man hater who thinks her beliefs are gospel and any man who tries to talk her out of them is a "sexist pig"...Definitely some SERIOUS issues here...poor thing. lol.
Saturday at 9:48pm · · 1 person
 
Andrão Brasileiro Fanático
Andrão Brasileiro Fanático
LOL..ok Nicki, you clearly are only here because what I said about this woman offended you and you are here defending her honour. You have made your point. I have answered your questions and if you have nothing further to say, then thanks for stopping by.

Have a great day.
Saturday at 9:53pm ·

Nicki Rivers
I read your replies to the questions I ask. I think the bottom line is we can't dictate to others how we think they should run their facebook page based on how we run ours, anymore than we can dictate to others how they run their household based on how we run ours.
Maybe she treats her facebook page like a sort of public diary, a place tthat allows her to vent and she doesn't welcome other folks opinions on it. That's her right. It's not others right to try to boss over how she chooses to run her page. If she wants to use her page as her personal venting ground then dudes have to accept it and go someplace else.
And since you've mentioned blocking me twice now, you can go ahead. It won't hurt my feelings, and I won't be venting about it on my fb page lol because it ain't that serious. After all, we're not even FB friends. I'll just shrug my shoulders and move on. After all you have a right to block whomever you want just as I do.
Later dude.
Saturday at 9:54pm ·

Nicki Rivers
Andrao "You have made your point"
Hahaha, my work here is done. lol. ;)
Laters..
Saturday at 9:55pm ·

Andrão Brasileiro Fanático
Andrão Brasileiro Fanático
I don't block people from my page. Never have. I wasn't insinuating that I wanted to block you.
Saturday at 9:56pm ·

Terry L. Shed
@ Nikki – ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTONS

Q.1) “Why do you feel the need to go on ‘her page’ and question and challenge her views especially after you’ve read her stance?”
A.) I think you may have misread what I said. I said “I LATER” read her blogs or her ‘stance’ on how she felt only after the fact of her deleting me. (You can still read her blogs on her page under “BOX”. Furthermore, I felt I could go on her page and question and challenge her views because she accepted me as a friend. I can’t think of anything else I would do. Also, I felt the need to go on her page and question and challenge her views because I am a very outspoken person. You should know that I didn’t question her view ONLY until when what she said affect me that men were “trouble and toxic”. True, it didn’t affect me personally, but I think the question I asked was a legitimate question as into how and if it did affect me personally…since her view point was such a broad (not to mention negative) comment towards men. Does that answer you question?

Q.2) “Do you have a right to expect other people to treat their Facebook viewpoints the way you treat your?”
A.) Yes, I do have a right to expect other people to treat their Facebook viewpoints the way I treat mines. I have a right to expect of a person what they give me until they show me differently. If I don’t have any thing to go off of, then I’d have to expect that her view points are like mines or fitting to the best of my ability. Furthermore, the expectations I had about her that lead me to believe her view points were like mines were that she was 1) black, 2) a black single, 3) a black single atheist, 4) black single educated atheist. Based off those characteristics alone (alone as in not yet having the opportunity to have a conversation with her), yes, I had the right to assume she treated her Facebook the way I treat mines. Does that answer your question?

Q.3) “Do you feel because you are in fact a male that you are entitled to challenging her viewpoints”
A.) No, I don’t feel because I am in fact a male that I am entitled to challenge her view points; it has noting to do with being a male. I feel that I am in fact a person who has opinions and a thirst for understanding and believe in common dialogue in order to gain knowledge I am therefore entitled to challenge her viewpoints. Furthermore, since I am a person with an opinion, I also have a concious and feelings. The fact that her comment was directed towards males negatively in general gave me the right to challenge her view point. Also, I only challenged it, again, AFTER the question was general enough to involve my questioning. Does that answer your question?

Q.4) Would you go on a Christian’s person page and question their views about their beliefs after they’ve already made it clear that what they believe isn’t up for debate?”
A.) Yes, I would go on a Christian’s person’s page and question their views about their beliefs after they’ve already made it clear that what they believe isn’t up for debate. As a matter of fact I do. I’m one of the outspokenness person when it comes to religion…not just Christianity. For example, when a theist says something like, “Thank god”…I’ll more than likely let that go. But when a theist makes an outlandish claim that doesn’t hold water or promotes violence and discrimination or any other ideology that I think is harmful to mankind, yes, I challenge their viewpoints as well as their belief and logic. Does that answer your question?

Q.5) “Isn’t that disrespectful to someone to not respect their right to their own viewpoints on their own Facebook page”
A.) No, it is not disrespectful to someone to not respect their right to their own viewpoints on their own Facebook page. Facebook is an open form to the public for networking where you can add or delete people. If I’m added to someone’s page and have full access to comment ect., if that person says something that I don’t agree with I have a right to my voice my opinion in opposition…even if that person doesn’t wish to hear my opinions. Does that answer your question?

Q.6) “Why fell the need to challenge them in the first place?”
A. The need felt to challenge anyone who says something that I may not agree or understand is to gain and promote understanding and information. Does that answer your question?

Q.7) “Why not just let it go and be with like minded people?”
A. Being with likeminded people is not growing me as a person. This is one of the many reasons I am against religion. It doesn’t profit me to talk to people who think and fell like me other than comfort. I prefer to surround myself around different people with different ideas and perspectives. Again, not only does it better me…but if I’m wrong about my observations or lack a certain perspective to an issue, a more versatile surrounding can provide me with that information and insight. Does that answer your question?
Saturday at 11:17pm ·

Terry L. Shed
.....I'll take your lack of response as a "yes, that answered my questions".
Yesterday at 9:40am ·

Andrão Brasileiro Fanático
Andrão Brasileiro Fanático
She's not on my friends list, so she wont get the notification..
Yesterday at 10:41am ·

Terry L. Shed
Terry L. Shed
1) ...she deleted you too!? SMH. 2) you mean I made an effort and typed those long drawn out answers to her questoins and she not gone get it? Pshhh. I'm done. LOL.
Yesterday at 11:36am ·

Andrão Brasileiro Fanático
Andrão Brasileiro Fanático
LOL..no..I leave my page open so that people who are not on my friends list can comment...she was just browsing and saw my page and decided to comment...she was never on my list.
Yesterday at 11:45am ·

Julian Real
@Andrao, and also to Terry,

I'm going to posit a hypothetical, for the purposes of making a few points. Bear with me.

Let's say, hypothetically, that you are both unconsciously sexist and at times misogynistic, but are unwilling to own this because of your pathologically male supremacist egos.

Now, IF this were the case, and were I a woman interested in men who weren't pathologically sexist, I'd cut you both out of my life ASAP, because of the DEGREES to which you demonstrate this sexism and/or misogyny.

IF I interpreted you, Andrao, to be attempting to show Nicki the door, albeit politely, and name that as typically sexist behavior--silencing, let's say and ignoring a woman's speech addressed politely to you--would you welcome me taking that assessment elsewhere on Facebook and letting people know to beware of both you and Terry, for behaving in sexist and/or misogynistic ways?

IF you were both behaving like guys who had their egos wounded, and now need to make sure all the men out there don't get similarly bruised, would you welcome me taking that TRUTH elsewhere, and presenting it as such--not as a conclusion based on subjectivity, but as objective fact?

IF you both were to come together in a social space and compare your very subjective notes, your stories about a woman, not owning your own sexist biases at all, would that warrant anyone, woman or man, coming here to point that out to you? Would you see that as serving your emotional and spiritual growth, and expanding your political consciousness?

And when and if a WOMAN were to come here and point this out, IF you blew by her in your discussion with a MAN, would you welcome someone else coming here to point out that you did it--not from my subjective view--were it me who came here to point it out--but as objective fact?

Might "a reasonable, sane, politically astute person" conclude, were you to do such things, that if a man shows that a woman isn't worthy of response, that such ignoring of said woman was sexist and possibly an indicator of some unchecked deeply held hostility towards women?

Before drawing such conclusions, I'll ask you, Andrao:

Why didn't you respond to Nikki when she asked the questions THE FIRST TIME? What part of her question marks following her questions to you indicated she wasn't asking you a question she wished to have answered? Did you think she was expressing herself rhetorically? Just self-processing thoughts here for her own amusement?

Is it correct for me to assume than when men you know do exactly what Nicki describes you doing, you call those men out for behaving in a sexist manner? When, let's say, two men get together on a public forum and toss around psychiatric labels--a typically sexist/misogynistic thing to do--calling someone a man-hater, a typically sexist/misogynistic thing to do--do you challenge those men for being misogynists, or for being misogynistic? Are there occasions you can show me where you have done so? (Where you have called out men for gathering to draw sexist conclusions about a woman based on interpretations her behavior not owned as such?)

Do you believe men get to behave this way and have it be ethically and politically "okay"? Because I see men toss women under the bus all the time, in subtle and not-so-subtle ways.

What I see you both doing here, together, is conspiring to construct a version of someone that is loaded up with unquestioned and unexamined sexist assumptions, bias, and practices. Do you own that you've each done that? Do you both own that this thread shows off your abilities to do this, in practice?

I concur with the gist and specifics of what Nicki is saying that if women do to men what men do to women--and I mean the same things rather precisely--it is only the women men call out, not the men. And it is only the women men gather together to put down in the ways you both do put down and negatively categorise and psychoanalyse. And it is only the women who get called all manner of sexist/misogynistic terms like "crazy" and "bipolar" demonstrating "extreme highs and lows".

Now, IF I see some indicators of some psychiatric conditions here with you both--such as pathologically weak egos resulting in reactivity that contains elements of hostility; such as overly defensive posturing demonstrating an inability to accept truth when it comes from a woman, or women, to the point that two men need to reinforce one another's assumed "truthful" realities, to shore them up, to make them more TRUE, even when they remain loaded with sexist bias and misogynistic assumptions; if I demonstrate how two straight guys display a pathological level of heteropatriarchal "madness", and then take my conclusions to a few other places online, and a few other people say, "Yeah, I had a really similar experience of those two guys!", ought OUR collective perspective become TRUTH?

Please don't misunderstand. I'm not making those conclusions about you... yet. But, Andrao, IF I WERE to conclude that you do show hostility to Nicki here, and that hostility shows some unowned "anger issues" and IF you got angry at me for stating this, would it be acceptable for me to go elsewhere and use that to prove my point and rest my case?

This is how it works, guys. All some guy has to do is frame up any woman in SEXIST or MISOGYNIST ways, followed by the men claiming to know the TRUTH while women can never possibly know that about men who do EXACTLY the same thing. And I do mean" exactly".

Do you agree that it is, in reality, the case that men contact women, and for reasons unexplained to women, don't contact them ever again, and offer no explanation directly to the women? Do you agree that it is common patriarchal practice for men to subjectively misjudge women's behaviors, and to collude and conspire to come up with an explanation of what went down that leaves their own sexism out of their conclusions?

Nicki showed you how you do exactly what you say you don't respect people doing, so what's up with the sexist double standard, from both of you guys? Are your egos really so fragile that you need one another for self-validation?
33 minutes ago · ·

______________________

As my comment got deleted, I reposted it with the following intro:
Julian Real
Julian Real
This apparently accidentally got CENSORED. So I'll repost it:

@Andrao, and also to Terry,

I'm going to posit a hypothetical, for the purposes of making a few points. Bear with me.... [...]
 
Nicki showed you how you do exactly what you say you don't respect people doing, so what's up with the sexist double standard, from both of you guys? Are your egos really so fragile that you need one another for self-validation?
2 seconds ago · ·
______________________

UPDATE: So Andrao writes to ME, personally, not publicly, and comes up with some excuse for censoring my views. Typical. The man can't handle the truth. Because the truth about men is damned ugly.

Yes, it was deleted by me, and I just deleted your last comment again. If you are a friend of Aganju's indirectly sent here because of a note or status she wrote about me, then your post is not welcome on my page. If she is too much of a coward to come here and defend herself, then I CERTAINLY will not allow her cohorts to come to my page to do her talking for her.

Good day.
______________________

UPDATE: further private correspondence:

Awesome. Debate your views there then amongst your other radical pro feminists.
Julian Real June 28 at 11:13am
Yes, because you're too much of a coward to debate me on your turf. Typical...

_____________________

UPDATE:
This is his new Facebook pic.

Andrão Brasileiro Fanático
The subtitle to the poster, under the word "SEXISM" is utterly vile, woman-hating CRAP. A link to the poster is here. I guess he's done PRETENDING not to be a misogynist.

[Please be sure to see the follow-up post to this one, SEXISM-IN-ACTION, Part 2, by clicking *here*]

15 comments:

Nicki said...

Awesome!

Julian Real said...

Hi Nicki,

YOU are AWESOME! :)

JENNIFER DREW said...

An excellent example of male irrationality posing as 'rationality' because male supremacy always claims to speak the truth and woe betide any woman who dares to challenge a man on this issue.

This is precisely why man = default human whereas woman = inferior being who is always viewed/perceived from the male perspective.

Not forgetting men's arrogance and huge egos which must be constantly massaged by women and when a woman dares to put herself first and the man/men second then suddenly the woman is enacting mythical misandry.

The worst crime any woman can commit is to ignore men and/or to end a relationship with him. Patriarchy tells men they are the ones who know everything and they are the ones who decide when, where and how their male ownership of a woman will cease.

Women know your place - it is firmly under the heel of arrogant men such as this male or so he imagines.

Julian Real said...

The thing is, Jennifer, how many examples of this CRAP do these misogynists needs in order to see it? Don't they hear each other doing the same exact things: blaming women for everything and always letting themselves off the hook?

Thank goodness Nicki called them out in a way they couldn't possible ("rationally") describe as "angry".

Geesh. Men... (I don't know HOW I live with myself!!)

Beth said...

Bravo Nicki and Julian, thank you for your attempt to hold these men accountable.

When I was single, I always had to deal with the following type of crap from heterosexual men:

"Guy A" approaches me and we start a conversation. Fairly early on, "Guy A" asks the following question:

Guy A: "What do you do for a living?"

Beth: "I am a social worker at a shelter for battered women and their children."

Guy A: "Oh so I guess that you hate men and want to castrate us all."

Beth: "I'm ending this conversation, good-bye." I turn and walk away.

Later when I walk past "Guy A" and his friends, I hear, "She's obviously a crazy dyke bitch, fuck her, man!"

I had the AUDACITY to reject "Guy A" because of his stupid/sexist response to my profession and then he and his friends use sexist/homophobic language to verbally abuse me. So tragically TYPICAL!

Feel free to quote me here- If I hated men, I would treat men the way that men treat women!

Thank you again...

Beth

aileen said...

These guys can't see the Forrest for the trees can they?

Julian Real said...

Hi Beth,

That's surely it in a patriarchal nutshell, isn't it!?

And your quote... goes right to my fav quotes section on the right side of this blog!!! LOVE IT!!!!!

<3 Julian

Julian Real said...

Hi Aileen,

When industrialised, corporatised, and otherwise white male supremacy-impacted men see trees they only see one thing: lumber.

Similarly with all Life. Including with women. Men see the misuses to which women can be put for men's use, abusively.

Beth said...

I'm honored that you posted my quote! :o)

-Beth

Julian Real said...

Hi Beth,

I'm honored and thrilled to have it among my fav quotes! :)

Jha said...

Nicely done, dude! These guys always have something to maintain through their sexism. I cannot think of any other reason why, when other people are reasonable in pointing out their bullshit, they are so invested in defending themselves.

Julian Real said...

Hi Jha,

I really appreciate you stopping by, reading, and letting me know what you thought. I hope to see you around here more often, or to meet up elsewhere.

Cheers.

M. Tajbakhsh said...

Intresting, here is my take, I didn't see anything overtly sexist in the FB conversation. Calling a women crazy, tends to be normal among men, and for straight men, that often comes from the reality that women are relationship partners, and that realtionships are crazy. SO there is some coonditioning to think in this way in general.I don't see how that is dangerously sexist (in terms of realistic power relationshiops). The other thing is that there was vigourous debate between the parties involved, pointing to the fact that the males had enough repesct for women to take the argument seriously. Are the two men friends who are arguing with women who are not as good of friends, are thier other dynamics to this beside men vs. women and the reality of patriarcy. Frankly if his is an example of sexism in our generation I think thinks are looking great, the men clearly felt they had to respond to the women (true misognysts feel that to be degrading), and thier did not appear to be any power disparities brought on by partiarcy in the conversaions, all those invovled had eqaul power (except of course the guy whose wall it was, he has the power o delete things). patriarchy is real, though significantly diminished, but I think this is a very poor example of it.

Julian Real said...

Hello M. Tajbakhsh.

I'll respond to various parts of your comment here:

Intresting, here is my take, I didn't see anything overtly sexist in the FB conversation.

My first question to you is: are you a man? I'm curious. I'm not asking in order to dismiss what you say, as you'll see. But, in my experience, men don't see sexism where it exists, so I'm wondering.

Calling a women crazy, tends to be normal among men, and for straight men, that often comes from the reality that women are relationship partners, and that realtionships are crazy. SO there is some coonditioning to think in this way in general.I don't see how that is dangerously sexist (in terms of realistic power relationshiops).

I agree that it is normal among men to call women many negative things, "crazy", "insane", and "bipolar" being among the nicer terms men use when speaking negatively about women.

Women, on the other hand, do not tend to use as many negative terms about men, and tend not to call men names that appear to be psychiatric diagnoses. In my experience whites judge people of color in terms of their "level of sanity" where people of color do not do this, as a rule and common practice, to whites.

That it is normal for men, and you specifically identify straight men, to do this, only means sexism is normal. That someone happens normally is no argument that it isn't sexist or that it isn't dangerous. More on this follows. That straight men "in relationship" to women tend to want to call them crazy also doesn't make the name-calling not sexist.

And, this is where it gets confusing to lots of men and whites, in my experience: let me know if this is confusing to you.

Let's say women and men, people of color and whites, call each other "crazy" just as often. That too doesn't mean that when men do it to women it isn't sexist, and it doesn't make it part of institutional sexism for women to identify men that way because the speech acts aren't part of living in a female supremacist society. Similarly, if whites call people of color crazy, that is part of institutionalised racism, but if people of color call whites crazy, there are no "POC supremacist" institutions supported by that happening.

Please also read the following post on being in denial about what is and is not sexist in men's "acts of language":

http://radicalprofeminist.blogspot.com/2010/07/white-dudes-not-in-denial-john.html

I look forward to knowing if that discussion shifts your perspective on this.

Julian Real said...

The other thing is that there was vigourous debate between the parties involved, pointing to the fact that the males had enough repesct for women to take the argument seriously.

That isn't an argument that what the men say isn't sexist. We often have conflicting feelings about each other; the issue is whether we choose to express some of our feelings in ways that identify how we feel, or in ways that label women in negative ways.

Are the two men friends who are arguing with women who are not as good of friends, are thier other dynamics to this beside men vs. women and the reality of patriarcy.

I agree. I think the language the men use is also misogyistically racist.

Frankly if his is an example of sexism in our generation I think thinks are looking great,

Why? Why are any signs of sexism evidence that things are looking great? For whom? For the women experiencing the sexism? Or for the men who get to use those terms?

the men clearly felt they had to respond to the women (true misognysts feel that to be degrading),

I don't think that separations being "sexist men" and "misogynistic men" are so easily distinguished as you do. I am an anti-sexism male and I'm very capable of doing things that can have the effect of being misogynistic. It's the experience of my actions as named by the woman or women impacted that matters most--not how I see what I've done. Also, would you agree with this:

Feminist women are experts at identifying sexism. Sexist men are not.

and thier did not appear to be any power disparities brought on by partiarcy in the conversaions, all those invovled had eqaul power (except of course the guy whose wall it was, he has the power o delete things).

I don't agree that men bonding over calling women negative names is an expression of equal power among all concerned. She is targeted and being targeted publicly in ways none of the males were. How is that equality?

patriarchy is real, though significantly diminished,

I disagree with that assessment. I think patriarchy is as virulent as ever, and has not diminished. The women I know don't report experiencing less sexism.

but I think this is a very poor example of it.

I accept that as your view. But it seems to me that you ignore a lot of what I said in the post, and that you also fail to note how this plays out in the follow-up image at the bottom of the post.

I apologise to you for not linking this post to the one that goes into more of the history--what happened both before and after the story above. So please check that out SEXISM-IN-ACTION, Part 2, *here* and let me know whether you think this man is not behaving in a sexist and misogynist way.