Thursday, February 18, 2010

The Male "P" Spot: Why het men are so afraid to discover their own bodies' capacities for pleasure, from a sex organ that ISN'T a penis

 
[image is from here]

[What follows has been partially revised and added to after the post was initially written. Later revision on 24 September 2010 ECD. Last revision of one paragraph, on the objectification of breasts by men, was done on 31 August 2012.]

Above, witness the perennially pink human in medical diagrams and illustrations. (I have yet to meet one pink person, btw.) Ah, white (or is it pink?) supremacist racism. It finds its way into every area of society in which white people live.

I will take us on a little journey, into the world of sexism and heterosexism in the discussion of human sexuality. We will examine the G-spot on route to the P-spot. And we may take some side trips along the way from point G to point P.

First, a question to the reading audience:

Has anyone, anywhere, seen a medical illustration of the prostate gland and men's other sexual organs depicted with the prostate being touched and the penis erect? Why not? And why do these diagrams only exist to promote "checking for cancer"? Talk about stigmatising an organ! Do men think of women's breasts only as "things that may get cancer"? Are women's breasts presented to the public only as potentially in need of removal? No.

Women's breasts are "presented" socially, by pimps and advertisers, as "things for men", "things" to be used by men, mounds between which to thrust the penis, a thing to be cosmetically/surgically altered, lifted, bloated with silicone or saline pouches, a thing for men to poke, a thing for men to fetishise in the imagination, a thing for men to look at and touch, if not grab and grope in reality. Especially--and quite unnaturally--the most fake breasts are fetishised by normal men; giant breasts are drooled over or ejaculated onto--if the ejaculate isn't deposited onto the face of the person; the person with the breasts is believed to "like it" whenever a man ejaculates anywhere near, in,  or on her (i.e., usually a woman). Corporate pimps, advertising executives, clothing manufacturers, and television producers* all make it their business to promote the breast as a thing, or breasts as a pair of things which had better be (unnaturally) identical, and has better be exposed for some men's view to some degree. Men demand to know the contours of women's breasts, to see the form, to discern the shape, and to have the collective power to make that be so by controlling industries that make women's breasts readily available to men.

*Anyone would be hard-pressed to distinguish between those four groups of overwhelmingly wealthy white men.

There's a controversial and somewhat mythological* part of human female anatomy--not the breast--that may or may not exist, but has been promoted by het men as yet another reason why their dicks need to be in women's vaginas--allegedly for women. (When the dick isn't between the woman's breasts or buttocks, of course.) It has been termed the G-spot, named, wouldn't you know it, after a man (Dr. Ernst Grafenberg)! And women can welcome men near them and envelope men's penises should they wish, desire, and want to do so.

*From Wikipedia:
A study using ultrasound found women who report having vaginal orgasms do have thicker tissue in the G-Spot region, but this could be an extension of the clitoris rather than a separate structure. Another study of 1,800 twins found that 56% of women surveyed reported having a G-Spot, although this cannot be considered a representative study.[4] Sexual psychologists are concerned women may label themselves "dysfunctional" if they cannot find a G-Spot,[5] and women have had plastic surgery done to enhance G-Spot sensitivity. The largest study to date on the G-Spot found its existence unproven and subjective among women.[6] The study based its results on questionnaires and personal experience.

Sexual psychologists are concerned about the promotion of the G-Spot, as it could lead to women feeling "dysfunctional" if they do not experience it. Dr. Petra Boynton points out:[5]
We're all different. Some women will have certain area within the vagina which will be very sensitive, and some won't - but they won't necessarily be in the area called the G spot. If a woman spends all her time worrying about whether she is normal, or has a G spot or not, she will focus on just one area, and ignore everything else. It's telling people that there is a single, best way to have sex, which isn't the right thing to do.
*          *          *
Indeed.

And sexist politics are prevalent in any social discussion of women's bodies, especially when the subject is sex. *Here* we have a website created to tell men "how to master the woman's g-spot". And how many sites are there instructing women on how to master men's P-spot? And how many ultrasounds were done while men experienced pleasure rectally? And how many studies have been done on this matter? There is a kind of privacy of the body that men enjoy that women are not afforded in patriarchal, misogynistic, sexist societies.

A society that seeks to undermine women's sexual and physical autonomy from men and male systems will do whatever it takes to bind women to beliefs that are not in their best interests. Exhibit A: "feminine hygiene" products. Bodies have various smells. In case those het male researchers, marketers, and advertisers haven't noticed, men's crotches smell. So too does the area between men's buttocks. Are men sold "masculine hygiene" products, and told to attend to themselves before they let anyone move their face "down there"? In what sense don't men need "freshening" up? Would life be better if men's crotches smelled perpetually like spring meadows? How would it be if children were gathered in a room watching television with parents and ads came on the air repeatedly reminding men to use "dippety-douche"--a product men can lower their genitals into to make sure they smell like lilacs--for those times when men want to feel most confident?

Why do so many girls and young women not welcome oral sex being performed on them? I have heard, with sad regularity, young women speak to me about how they are terribly self-conscious about "what they smell like down there". I remind them that it is tremendously probable that women smell human down there, just as men's crotches smell human. And that boys and men don't seem especially obsessed about their own crotch's smell.

Advertising works, or it wouldn't exist as a multi-million dollar business. Girls and women, along with boys and men, absorb the message, delivered without relief, that their genitals need to be attended to with chemical washes and rinses before a boy or man's face can go near it. And what are the "cleansers" called for men to use to wash their crotches, besides soap? This matter of women's bodies, and specifically their genitals, being "dirty" is a powerful message in many patriarchal societies. Sometimes women are made to "go away" while menstruating. Some cultures require women to not go near social places or food while they are bleeding "down there". As if women stir-fry or order in a pizza using their crotches.

What women want is never central in the sexxx that is manufactured by male pimps. The reasons women's bodies are invaded or violated are certainly not due to women's mass demand for such mistreatment--unless you actually believe what trafficked and pimped women are made to say in front of a camera. The pimp-speak scripted for women to say (or grunt) in pornography films is not imagined with women's human rights in mind. Where in the world do women have full control over their bodies such that men approach them only when women desire, wish, welcome, and want men to?

I wish it were the case that only when all those criteria were met (desiring, wishing, welcoming, and wanting), did vaginal-penile intercourse occur. Alas, everything from incest, molestation, rape, assault, and other forms of unwelcomed and unwanted violence against and violation of women and girls ensures that this activity will occur when het men want it to, not women... or girls... or infant human females.

What misogynistic, racist, and callous men do routinely to women's bodies is gross. And when men do it, women get stigmatised as the gross, dirty ones. How "fucked up" is that?!?

There is a less contested part of men's anatomy--not at all mythic, called "the prostate gland" which only gets discussed in dominant media when the term "cancer" is in the same sentence or news story. When is the last time you heard, on national news broadcasts, or on "morning shows", the prostate gland discussed as one of males' several sexually responsive organs?

Due to a combination of institutionalised and naturalised heterosexism, and profound and virulent levels of homophobia and misogyny, men's rectum's being penetrated in sex, as sex, is seen as "feminising" of the man who engages in this sort of behavior. In some societies, it is only the male who takes the penis into his body (note how often women doing this is not phrased that way!) who is socially seen as "gay". The male who sticks his dick in women and men, or whose dick is enveloped and gripped  by women or men, is not seen to be gay. Such a man is seen as heterosexual.

This is but one reason why I say that sexual orientation is a social, not "natural" phenomenon.

There is a stigma attached to the body that sometimes has a penis inside it. The stigma--not a natural one--is generated socially and politically by being degraded by men's violent acts of invasion and violation of women's bodies. Due to the degradation of women by men, at times involving the penetration of her body by a penis, all forms of penetrative sex carry this stigma. The accepter of the penis is potentially degraded in the act, not at all because of something inherent to the act. The stigma comes from the frequency with which het-active men utilise these acts as means to achieve degradation and dehumanisation of people. Therefore the physical act of having a penis in your body is stigmatised as dirtying, degrading, and feminising. As Dworkin noted in her book Intercourse, women are (effectively) dirt to men who use them in dirty, degrading ways.

So all those butch het boys who want to never appear to be anything other than "masculine", may reply "no thank you" to the opportunity to experience sexual pleasure that may be achieved by massaging the prostate gland, which is finger deep in men's rectums, unless it has been removed surgically. Note how women's alleged G-spot is not so likely to be thought of as something that ought to be approached with great care and overt and meaningful consent. Note how men do not take "no thank you" or "no, not interested" or just "no" as a sufficient indicator of her wish not to do what men ask women to do, sexually, that he wants to do. Note how we don't assume that if a man says no to anally penetrative sex, she has a right to force her way in. And if he allows her to play near his anus, we don't assume that means he's consenting to her jamming something into his ass.

To all het men who are nervous about having your anus penetrated during sex: please "do unto others as you would have done unto you" when it comes to penetrating anyone's body, in any way, with anything, including your dick. And learn how to have non-penetrative sex, non-phallocentric (or phallocratic) sex. You'd be surprised what sex can be, if you take the focus off your own dick long enough to discover the rest of your body, and, if heterosexually active, the rest of women's bodies too.

Het men who are sexually active ought to be made to learn about female anatomy, and be socially required to be deprogrammed of pornographic sexxxuality before being allowed near anyone to engage in sexual behavior. Interpersonally, het men who plan to be sexually active with a woman ought to seek out from her  information about what she enjoys, prefers, doesn't like, doesn't want to be asked to do, and is triggered by, sexually. There's no physiological, hormonal, genetic, or anatomical reason het men can't ask for this information BEFORE you put your dick near a woman's body.

And perhaps if we spoke more about the prostate gland as a sex organ, and discussed how to stimulate it, we'd be more mindful of how it might feel to have women's vaginas be discussed as if they were not part of women's lives, their human histories as vulnerable and vibrant human beings.

Newsflash to het men: your anuses, as well as your rectums and prostate glands, are potentially part of your lives, your histories as vulnerable and vibrant human beings.

For more on one of male human beings' sex organs, see http://ezinearticles.com/?Male-G-Spot-Diagram-For-Mega-Orgasms&id=2850510.

To Kevin, who insists Anatomy is Destiny when it comes to Vaginal-Penile Intercourse

 [image is from here]

We can note, that in the supposedly politically neutral image above, the man has browner and darker skin and is that the female's skin is "pink" and she's tipping backward, whereas he is leaning forward. I wonder why they didn't depict her bending over him? Het-genital intercourse happens that way too!

I will note that the above image does not even begin to depict the complexity of the clitoral superstructure, which extends from the clitoris and includes what some call "the G-Spot". It would be surprising to me that most men don't even understand basic female anatomy except that the "sex education" materials pimps produce don't really care about women's pleasure at all.

What follows is a portion of commentary/discussion about a post by feministx over at her blog linked to here. I have problems with many of the comments, and so have edited them for my own blog. I also have problems with some that appear below, but will, in time, address them. Kevin is being a doofus. I guess that's what you need to know before proceeding.
Kevin said...
You`re right, hetero sex IS degrading, and women ARE ingerior - it is useless to deny this basic truth. All this means is that women ARE inferior and SHOULD be in an inferior position - nature seems to demand this as she makes propagation of the very species dependent on it. But all pointless metaphysics aside, the fact that the survival of the human species depends on something that is inherently degrading and lowering for women, we must stop expecting reality or nature once and for all to be *fair*. It isn`t. Nietszche long ago insisted that at its very core, at it the center of its being, human life was unfair and depended on exploitation, violation, and unfairness and we should not expect nature to conform to our quaint moral norms. Okay, so sex is lowering to women - what of it? Should we now cease to propgate as a species? Pah. We should simply continue lowering women, cheerfully and with a good conscience, and go along existing. The more enlightened of us can accept that women are not the equal of men. The rest can fight it, but they will lose against nature.

SDaedalus said...
Kevin's got a point. Although I don't agree that heteronormative sex is generally degrading to women, a successful argument to this effect has follow-on consequences which I'm not sure have been fully thought through by some of the propagators of this argument.

Julian Real said...
@Kevin, You'd have made a good slaver. Same logic. There's nothing inherently degrading about non-abusive sex, and sex can be non-abusive and non-degrading, and that was the point of Dworkin's book, Intercourse. All the antifeminists got it wrong: she was saying precisely the opposite of what ppl claim, that "all sex is rape" or "all sex is degrading". She was saying that as long as males are socialised to view women as inferior, het intercourse for women will often be degrading, because women who have sex with men will often feel that contempt during the act. There's no "biological" necessity for women to have lots of sex with men, btw. And "degradation" doesn't happen asocially. Sorry to bust up your wack misogynistic theorising. (You get that sociobiology is a joke science, right?)

kevin said...
Julian, that doesn`t seem to be the case, and as FemX pointed out and Dworkin may or may not claim - I never read her so I don`t know - a certain amount of unavoidable inferiority is inherent in the submissive, receptive posture of women during sex. At best, if not degradation, then at the very least inferiority. It has nothing to do with attitude or conditioning, it just is, as part of the physical process. For me personally this is no problem because I have an appetite for unpalatable truths, but for those who don`t like it, it poses insoluble problems. Better accept it. I`m not in the least bit misogynistic - I love women, I just don`t for a moment take the absurd view that they are, as a whole, equal to men. I don`t know why women even wish to be equal to men - to be equal to men, they would have to transform into men. Essentially, feminism is the most misogynistic idea out there - I`m not well versed in this nonsense but I`m sure this point has been made by someone before, so I won`t belabor it. It`s pretty obvious. Women should be happy with what nature has made them, temperamentally, physically, and intellectually, as a group, inferior to men, and they should proudly embrace that role and revel in what they irerevocably ARE - it has it`s advantages. It would be as much use for a plant to rebel against the fact that it is green as it is for women to rebel against the fact that they are women. Neither are responsible in any way for their nature, but as products of nature they would lead healthier, happier lives if they affirmed their identity.

SDaedalus said...
Julian: There's nothing inherently degrading about non-abusive sex, and sex can be non-abusive and non-degrading, and that was the point of Dworkin's book, Intercourse. All the antifeminists got it....She was saying that as long as males are socialised to view women as inferior, het intercourse for women will often be degrading.... That's not true. You are narrowing both Dworkin and Fem X's argument, which speaks to heteronormative sex generally, without distinguishing between abusive and non-abusive heteronormative sex. Basically, what both of them are saying is that heteronormative sex generally is abusive. Example: Dworkin refers to Shere Hite, who objects to thrusting during sex. I can't accept that heteronormative sex (and attendant thrusting) in Western society is inherently degrading in the sense you use this term (which I note corresponds with my definition 1. above), although I can accept that in certain circumstances (e.g. rape, it may be degrading) Re slaving argument, unnecessary self-definition of members of a gender as perma-victims compulsively engaging in the very activity alleged to victimise them does not empower that gender. Women (who in all honesty have been happily constructing and polishing their own chains for centuries) are sometimes their own worst enemies.

jason said...
Heteronormative sex can be degrading for a woman or a man, but is not necessarily so in either case. I don't think degrading is a property of the act alone -- it's a property that belongs to the combination of the act and the participants. Some people might find it degrading to wear blue jeans. If the people involved in the act don't find it degrading, then I'll defer to their judgment on that one. You used one particular sex position in your argument. However, plenty of men enjoy getting on their knees with their legs slightly spread, head down and back arched, while getting pegged by their female lover (ask Dan Savage). Is that degrading? I bet most of these men don't feel that way. If it's an act that you want to participate in, and people see that act as low rank, then you already see yourself that way and hence are not lowering your rank. Suppose a woman jumps on top of a man (he's lying on his back) and she rides him hard. She's taking over, occupying him and could even hurt him if she does it too hard. Is that degrading? Again, it depends on if she feels like she's degrading him and if he feels degraded. It's just a fact that our genitals are such that the man does the penetrating. That doesn't seem relevant to the argument. I did enjoy your post and think you made some good points. Seems like a topic worthy of more exploration

mengbomin said...
Towards the post: I can see how this line of thought strings together, but I don't see how it is any way useful. Note:I'm going to use "heterosexual sex" rather than the post's "heteronormative sex" mainly because I think that heterosexual is a more appropriate adjective for the act of intercourse, whereas heteronormative refers to broader social patterns. Since heteronormativity revolves around heterosexuality and not vice versa, it's hard to see how the former term can be more applicable than the latter, unless you think there is something fundamentally different about heterosexual sex between two individuals who do not have a heteronormative ideology. That said, what is the intention of naming and emphasizing degradation of the female as a primary attribute of heterosexual sex? The primary directions that such a line of thought can lead are in favor of lesbianism or female asexuality or an acceptance of Kevin's argument that women should be degraded and are inferior. Unless you have another argument in mind with more complicated logic, it seems that you are either arguing against heterosexual sex or for female social inferiority. As an interjection, I will say that neither line of thought jibes with my own. As a female who, based upon your past posts, has had sex with at least one male, was the concern of degradation a primary feeling that you had during those times? If so, do you feel that your experience is representative of that of all women participating in heterosexual sex? If not, why do you feel it is important to promote degradation as an fundamental attribute of heterosexual sex when it was not a primary concern during your own experience with heterosexual sex? I also think it's worthwhile to explore why a male in a position similar to that of a female during heterosexual sex would find the position degrading. From a reproductive standpoint, a female who is having sex with a male is behaving in a manner "designed" to pass on her genes. A male behaving in a similar manner would receive no such benefit and would face a possible detriment. Given that point, is your thought experiment still useful?

mengbomin said...
All the arguments against against feminism based on difference have been used to justify the subjugation of different races. Even if that were true, it wouldn't hold that such arguments could be dismissed on that basis. A male and a female of similar ancestry are more different from one another at the macroscopic level than two males of distant common ancestry. Therefore, it is possible that arguments that should not be accepted when they are used to justify subjugation of other races may be acceptable arguments against feminism. That is to say, a refutation of said arguments requires independent reasons for dismissal. Male-female relations should not be treated in the same manner as interracial relations. Thus if an argument advocating a set of norm, actions, or behaviors is incorrect in the case of the latter, that does not imply that a similar argument is incorrect in the case of the former. Feminists don't want women to be like males as they are now. Feminsts don't want anyone to be like males as they are now. I suspect that you want to clarify what you mean, because being like "males as they are now" can refer to any number of attributes within a very large set. Interpreted at the most general way, it would suggest that feminists are advocating a Sisyphean task with unclear benefits, which isn't a positive light in which to cast feminists. Since your pseudonym is FeministX, I assume that's not what you meant. A final question: Why did you name this post "The Science of Heteronormative Sex"? It seems to me to be more of an ideological framing of an issue rather than anything involving scientific rigor.

sabril said...
I agree with mengbomin. I would just add that FemX's use of the word "women" to refer to women while using the word "males" to refer to men is a transparent attempt to dehumanize men. Which is actually part of the reason I have so much contempt for feminism. It reminds me of white supremacists who capitalize "White" but not "black." (Or black supremacists who do the reverse.) Anyway, I hope this blog doesn't degenerate into the sort of anti-man screeds which are so common among feminists.

collegeboy said...
hey femmyx I remember reading your fears of the up and coming sex-bot revolution about women being wiped out and stuff like that. well check this out: http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/02/01/sex.robot/

SDaedalus said...
Jason: I don't think degrading is a property of the act alone -- it's a property that belongs to the combination of the act and the participants Mengbomin: what is the intention of naming and emphasizing degradation of the female as a primary attribute of heterosexual sex? Unless you have another argument in mind with more complicated logic, it seems that you are either arguing against heterosexual sex or for female social inferiority and As a female who, based upon your past posts, has had sex with at least one male, was the concern of degradation a primary feeling that you had during those times? These are all really good points.

Anonymous said...
Isn't cleaning your teeth even more "degrading"? Surely no one looks good doing that and people do not do it in the street. As much as I usually like your blog posts, there is nothing admirable on Dworkin's work; she is an ideological counterpart of Lenin, a bigoted hater with chiliastic quasi-religious zeal, mightily concentrated on turning the entire world upside down because she knows the Truth Revealed and the Right Path. Not to mention her personality ... zero humanity, zero sense of humor; an example of the classical obsessed fanatic who cannot change her mind and won't change the subject. I still cringe at the memory of reading her. Brrr. Now I probably committed a thought-crime.

Suomipoika said...
1. FemX's little "bend over on your knees and imagine getting pounded by a 6 inch schlong for several minutes" experiment could just as well be describing sex between gay guys. What's so "hetero-normative" about that??? 2. Doggy is not the one and only position in heterosexual intercourse. Many women like doggy, so they want to be degraded? Or they simply want to enjoy hetero sex in its various forms? It would be just as easy AND silly to "empirically verify the degrading nature of heteronormative sex" towards men by telling women to experiment and imagine getting the most sensitive piece of their body being pumped up and down by 120 lbs of bone, fat and muscle. 3. "experiment in question 2 is practiced at lying, bribery, coercion and emotional manipulation and enjoys using such methods to convince you to engage in the scenario described in question 2." - 100% straw man argument. Any act achieved by lying, coercion etc is often degrading. Heterosex does not have to involve any of those, if it does THEN it can be degrading. If some selfish individual uses such methods in order to get laid it tells something about that person, not about heteronormative sex per se. It would be too easy to list more counter-arguments, I won't even bother. I have enjoyed reading some of FemX's posts, especially at the beginning of her blog but this time she has hit rock bottom.

Julian Real said...
@Kevin, Re: a certain amount of unavoidable inferiority is inherent in the submissive, receptive posture of women during sex. Kevin, anatomy doesn't dick-tate experience, sorry. And there's nothing intrinsically inferiorising or degrading about a woman welcoming a penis near her body and deciding, with action--her own, to envelope it with a strong muscle, known as the vagina. There's nothing "subordinating" or "submissive" that has to occur for vaginal-penile intercourse to occur. She may, for example, never be beneath a man in order to accomplish the act, and may arrange for some clitoral stimulation while enjoying intercourse. You make women sound terribly "passive" during sex, for all women. Are you sure you're not drugging them or having sex with very drunk women? Perhaps that's how you approach it with women--requiring her passivity. I hope not. You see hetero-intercourse the way pornographers and pimps want you to--as a dick forcing its way in. But that's not how sex has to be, and many women enjoy such intercourse without it being "an invasion" or "a violation": because the women take that penis into them, they don't "let it in". See the "Make Porn, Not Love" website for more details on how to have great heterosex.

Toby Young refuses to get what's REALLY going on with women who are not having sexist sex with men

 
[image of Toby Young is from here

Toby Young is the author of How to Lose Friends & Alienate People (2001) and The Sound of No Hands Clapping (2006). In addition to being a freelance journalist, he is leading the efforts of a parent group in West London to set up a state secondary school. To learn more about that project, visit the school's website on www.westlondonfreeschool.co.uk. Toby's personal website is www.nosacredcows.co.uk and he tweets under the name of Toadmeister.

When het men can't figure out why women don't want to have sex with them, what do they do? Either blame the women or get all effemiphobic about the matter, rather than looking at what else is going on in women's lives. Even when they read feminist analysis, they reject it as "the explanation" because, after all, white het men know what's really going on, right? Wrong. What follows is from *here*. It's from the Telegraph.co.uk. My reply to him appears after his silly attempt at social analysis.

Why do so many women never have sex? Because feminised men are too busy fixing their hair

By Toby Young Last updated: February 17th, 2010

According to a report in today’s Daily Mail, a quarter of British women over 35 say they “never” have sex. The figure rises to 38 per cent in Scotland, while women in the Midlands are most likely to have sex regularly, with 32 per cent claiming they make love once a week.

Could the explanation be that men’s libidos aren’t what they used to be? No, according to the Mail. It was ever thus. It cites a new book called The Sex Starved Wife by American author Michele Weiner Davis. “As a society, we’ve perpetuated this myth about the ever-turned-on-male,” says Weiner Davis. “But all my research suggests that the differences between the genders aren’t as great as we’ve been led to believe.”

I’m not so sure. I think the male libido is in decline — and I blame the feminisation of men that has taken place over the past 15 years or so. Like most trends, this one began in America and has now crossed the Atlantic. I remember being shocked on first entering the bathroom of an American male in 1995. There, carefully lined up on a stainless steel shelf, was a larger array of beauty products than you’d expect to see in Cheryl Cole’s boudoir. Admittedly, this was a sophisticated New Yorker in his mid-30s — a metrosexual, if you will — but even so. Did he really have to go to bed every night wearing a mask of Kiehl’s Facial Fuel? It seemed extraordinary.

Fifteen years later, it is now the norm. British men in their twenties spend a small fortune on cosmetic products. Back in the eighties, we would have been worried about being called “gay” if we used fake tan, but that fear has gone the way of the Sinclair C5. When I find myself in the West End on a Friday night, I see young men who have clearly spent as much time getting ready as your average woman. And I’m not just talking about Old Compton Street.

At the risk of sounding like a Grumpy Old Man, I do find this trend pretty reprehensible. Vain women are bad enough, but there’s nothing more pathetic than a vain man. In Shakespeare’s plays, over-attention to dress is always the hallmark of a fool, from Osric’s bonnet to Malvolio’s garters. Since the dawn of time, manliness has always been synonymous with a complete indifference to personal grooming. It’s not simply that real men don’t eat quiche; they don’t moisturise, either.

Surely, it is this gender reversal — with men becoming more like women as women become more like men — that accounts for the decline in male sexual desire. It is hard to imagine a metrosexual throwing a woman over his shoulders and marching off into the primeval forest — he’d be too worried about messing up his hair.

I’m currently reading a book called Living Dolls: The Return of Sexism by the feminist writer Natasha Walter. She believes contemporary British women have recently taken a step backwards and begun to embrace sexual identifies — personified by glamour models like Jordan — that demean and degrade them. She sees this as evidence of a creeping misogyny, with men and women reverting to patriarchal sexual stereotypes:
It is still women who are dieting or undergoing surgery on their bodies; still women stripping in the clubs while the men chant and cheer; still women, not men, who believe that their ability to reach for fame and success will be defined by how closely they conform to one narrow image of sexuality. If this is the new sexual liberation, it looks too uncannily like the old sexism to convince many of us that that this is the freedom we have sought.
I don’t dispute her data, but I think her theory’s all wrong. When young women engage in sexually provocative behaviour, wearing short skirts, flashing their boobs, and so forth, they are not trying to please men. On the contrary, it’s a form of brutal triumphalism. Having won the battle of the sexes, leaving men broken and emasculated, women are now rubbing our faces in it by parading about in outfits that, not so long ago, might have triggered a sexual response. Hardly surprising, then, that 35 per cent of British women aren’t getting any. I’m amazed that 65 per cent still are.
*          *          *
See *here* for the comments. Here's my reply to him:

The issue isn’t the “feminisation” of men, as you so misogynistically put it. The problem is rather the opposite:
Men’s sexual lives are so increasingly and addictively entwined with and tethered to pornography that men would rather have sex with themselves in front of a computer screen than have sex with a human being.
If heterosexual, having sex with a female human being “annoyingly” (to boy-men) means men have to be “responsive” and… imagine this: unselfish.

As I see it, and hear about it from women, female human beings are fed up with men’s selfish sex being “all sex is” and would rather go without, for damn good reason.

And plenty of women are having sex, alone, or with other women. And they may not be reporting on just how much better that sex is than when they were with the wanker first husbands who would rather wank using their wives as their right hands, than figure out how to be emotionally and physically connected to another human being and showing interest in giving her pleasure that isn’t based on HIS (read: pimps’) fantasies. Maybe pimped women on drugs isn’t many women’s idea of “a standard” to live up to, including the women who are being controlled and drugged up by pimps.

Maybe women are getting tired of hearing their pathetic boyfriends whine for them to work a pole… for men’s pleasure, not women’s.

Maybe women are sick and tired of men with arrested sexual and emotional development.

Maybe women aren’t interested in men who think women should have helium in their breasts, flat stomachs, and hairless bodies.

Maybe women are tired of doing all the oppressive and annoying stuff women have been coerced into doing for men who don’t really appreciate them after they do all that stuff.

The women I know are having great sex with men who are poets, and artists, who care about women as people, and who don’t expect women to look twenty when they’re fifty. Men who actually LIKE and are ATTRACTED to women in their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond. Maybe women are tired of having some silly version of sex with men who, aesthetically and sensually, are obnoxious boys in adult male bodies.

It’s easier to blame it on cosmetics, though, isn’t it Toby? The truth hurts. Check out the “Make Love, Not Porn” website and find out why women aren’t having sex with porn addicts. See: http://www.makelovenotporn.com/

Wednesday, February 17, 2010

"Violation is a synonym for intercourse" DOES NOT MEAN "all sex is rape"!

 
This message is being brought to you by anti-feminists across the Internet.
[image is from here
"As all advocates of feminist politics know most people do not understand sexism or if they do they think it is not a problem. Masses of people think that feminism is always and only about women seeking to be equal to men. And a huge majority of these folks think feminism is anti-male. Their misunderstanding of feminist politics reflects the reality that most folks learn about feminism from patriarchal mass media." -- bell hooks
"Feminism is hated because women are hated. Anti-feminism is a direct expression of misogyny; it is the political defense of women hating." -- Andrea Dworkin
"Since the abatement of censorship, masculine hostility (psychological or physical) in specifically sexual contexts has become far more apparent. Yet as masculine hostility has been fairly continuous, one deals here probably less with a matter of increase than with a new frankness in expressing hostility in specifically sexual contexts. It is a matter of release and freedom to express what was once forbidden expression outside of pornography or other "underground" productions, such as those of De Sade. As one recalls both the euphemism and the idealism of descriptions of coitus in the Romantic poets (Keats's Eve of St. Agnes), or the Victorian novelists (Hardy, for example) and contrasts it with Miller or William Burroughs, one has an idea of how contemporary literature has absorbed not only the truthful explicitness of pornography, but its anti-social character as well. Since this tendency to hurt or insult has been given free expression, it has become far easier to assess sexual antagonism in the male." -- Kate Millett, Sexual Politics, 1968
In the late 1960s, Kate Millett identified something, in society and in literature, that was rampantly manifest at the time she observed it: male aggression took especially sexual forms, often against females. Force is fetishised.

Her observation was refuted by many men, even while she had analysed the books of  well-read and established "great" male writers. Men fumed that she dared to say out loud something that many already intimately knew, but had no language for: that sex and gender are profoundly political, even more than they were or are "natural" as that term is popularly (mis)understood. It was like announcing "water is wet" or "fire is hot". She was telling a basic, fundamental social (not natural) truth about men in a patriarchal, rapist society that het men knew but didn't want known.

It was and, forty-plus years later, still is het men who aggress sexually against women, calling it "sex". To this day, "fucking" and "sex" are synonymous to many people. From Most heterosexual people I know use the term "sex", when describing an activity between people, to mean "vaginal/penile intercourse" and nothing else. Everything else has its own name: blowjob, eating out, handjob, jerking off. But "sex", to this day, is a synonym for the act in which a part of a man's body is placed, somehow, within a woman's genitals.

Maybe, just maybe we can weed out some of the online antifeminist bozo-block's misinformation campaign's most malicious mendacity.

Ranking in the top ten lies antifeminists tattle online, is that Andrea Dworkin (and/or Catharine A. MacKinnon--with her first name almost always misspelled), said that "all sex is rape" or "all intercourse is rape". Neither of them ever said it or wrote it, and if you want a non-feminist source of verification that neither feminist said it, go to snopes.com, *here* and read the page called "rape seeded" about this internet and off-line printed myth/lie/misinformation campaign. MacKinnon has, in one of her more recent books, in a footnote, traced this misinformation back to a few sources, all of which were anti-radical feminist.

But the lie remains because it serves antifeminist/propatriarchal/propornographer/propimp interests to keep it going and going and going, like an Energizer Bunny on a sports drink, double latte, and speed.

One might reasonably ask, where in Intercourse, by Dworkin, does it say "all sex is rape" or "all intercourse is rape"? Answer: Nowhere. (But surely she's said it, somewhere, at some time, in some book she wrote once about something? Nope. Not at all. Not ever.) What Andrea Dworkin DOES say is that, in English, "violation", socially, is a synonym for intercourse. If you're familiar either with pornography, romance novels, soap operas, or something called "dominant society", you'd know this is ubiquitously and indubitably the case, and is not at all a controversial or contested observation, on the part of Andrea Dworkin. It's as controversial as saying "war kills people" or "pollution is unhealthy". Yes, there are defenders of both war and pollution, and, in fact, those people are in charge of Western civilisation. So too are the men who define sex as fucking and fucking as the violation, penetration, and occupation of a woman by a man. They are called, here, corporate pimps, pornographers, husbands, preachers, and politicians.

Steering clear of pornography, I'll alert those still in massive denial about this matter of socially synonymous semantics with romance novel-speak for "intercourse involving a man's penis and a woman's vagina". Sex, as fucking, as violation, is often called "penetration". Here is a very partial portion of a VERY long list for ALL the heterosexist expressions, phallocentric phrases, antifeminist axioms, endemically misogynistic euphemisms, and plain old dirty terms for "that act", aka "the fuck" found in a collection of romance novels:
  • as he took her
  • buried himself to the hilt
  • burying himself all the way
  • claimed her
  • cry of pleasure
  • driving into her
  • drove his manhood
  • drove into her
  • drove up into her
  • embedding himself deeply
  • entered her with a driving thrust
  • filled her completely
  • filled her in one swift motion
  • filled her to the hilt
  • ground his molten member into her
  • he took her
  • imbedded himself
  • impaled her
  • impaling her on his straining shaft
  • moved hard into her
  • plunged his manhood
  • plunged inside her
  • plunged into her
  • plunging hotness penetrated
  • possess the lily
  • powerful fullness entered and filled her
  • probed her
  • pulling her down
  • pushed into her
  • sharp penetration
  • speared her
  • surrendered
  • thrust himself into her
  • thrust his hardness into her softness
  • thrust of his manhood
  • wanting became reality
That last one... I had to keep it in the abridged list, because it's so fucking hilarious. As for the others above, we can note how, again and again, dominant society reinforces the idea that both "woman" and "man" = their genitals. The heterosexual woman and man's genitals are one and the same--the penis isn't just an extension of the man who fucks, but it IS the man who fucks. The fucking makes the man, as long as the fuckee is female or feminine. And she doesn't have a vagina and vulva as her genitals; instead, when that area of her body is penetrated, "she" is penetrated. He took her, means his penis entered her vagina. He speared her means his penis entered her vagina. This act of "love-making", in these very popular books, requires force against a person: taking her, pulling her down, pushing, plunging, impaling, sharp penetration, thrust, and surrender.

I know this will shock some of the most ardent "anti-MacDworkinites" but Andrea Dworkin didn't make society. For all the power anti-feminist men project onto her, she was never so powerful as to be able to create the world we live in. She was able to name aspects of it, however. And she did this without regard to whether it made men look "good". But she noted that men, in a dualistically and hierarchically gendered society, means "good", and womanhood means "bad". So men are good, by definition, and women are bad, by definition. This partially explains why it is that het men who visually violate women who have been pimped and raped and displayed by their pimps, think they are looking at "pictures of naked women". They are not.

They are looking at pictures or are watching videos of women who are portrayed as bad, with their sexuality and their genitals also being "bad", in need of punishment, abuse, subordination, submission, death. Andrea Dworkin didn't create the pornography industry, she wrote about it. Pimps created all that material that portray women as wh*res, as sinful, as evil, as a tease, as deserving of all forms of degradation and violence. The only irony, and it is a bitter one, is that since women are, definitionally, "bad", one wonders why men have to make her pay for it over and over and over again. For what else can she be? And what will she be after all that degradation and violence: "good"?

Well, according to dominant society, her being tamed and tethered to him is "good". In our terribly romantic heterosexist society, her father gives her to hre husband. If he's a gentle-man, he asks her father for permission to marry her. How sweet, right? She never quite gets to stand alone, does she? This is the real world of patriarchal imperatives and practices. This is "life". And Kate Millett and Andrea Dworkin, among many other women, had the audacity to challenge those imperatives and call for an end to those practices which subordinate women and define her, her sexuality, and her genitals as "bad"--in need of punishment, subduing, subordination to him and his other "him"--his penis.

As Dworkin notes in her writings, pornography takes all that romantic Disney-esque racist, rapist CRAP to far more overtly misogynistic and racist places. I'll leave it to the reader, who I trust has been around the patriachal block, to seek out verification, using Google, if necessary, of the degrees to which corporate pimps will go to keep this propaganda (called "porn" in popular vernacular) in the censored and withered Western imagination. As Dworkin noted, it is pornographers who are the censors, not the feminists who oppose them with their not-so-well-funded speech. Pornographers make many billions of dollars a year and can afford a bevy of attorneys to make sure their "speech rights" are not abridged in any way. That their speech means women's silence was noted by Dworkin and is ignored, generally.

Her work is both ignored and distorted, by anti-feminists who want to kill feminism so their their white economically privileged dickdoms may stay institutionally erect, looming large, in charge.

With great thanks to feministx, I am glad to be able to post this clarification of misogynist men's incessant internet lie about "what Andrea Dworkin said" that anti-feminists have been blabbering on about endlessly, as if they've ever read a book by Dworkin. What follows is all hers--a post she just did on this subject:

The Science of Heteronormative Sex

I commented on Sophia's blog in response to a criticism of a feminist. Commenters subsequently implied a mocking derision of an author who is dear to me, Andrea Dworkin.

Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercourse_(book)) Dworkin describes her assessment of heterosexual intercourse as it is generally performed and perceived.
Intercourse is a particular reality for women as an inferior class; and it has, in it, as part of it, violation of boundaries, taking over, occupation, destruction of privacy, all of which are construed to be normal and also fundamental to continuing human existence.

Intercourse is often said to argue that "all heterosexual sex is rape", based on the line from the book that says "violation is a synonym for intercourse.
"
And the mocking ensues- Oh Andrea! What a loony. Heteronormative sex degrading? Comparable to an occupation? Only something the most vile of extremists would say such a thing!

Pah. If you don't think heteronormative sex is degrading for a woman, there are some possible explanations for your puerile and impaired understanding of sexual relations:

Reason A: You are a virgin. You don't know anything about sex.
Reason B: You either aren't very reflective or you aren't good at coming to reasonable conclusions upon reflection.
Reason C: You are stoopid.

First, we should make sure to develop a careful understanding of the meaning of the word, degraded.

degrading: de⋅grade [di-greyd or, for 3, dee-greyd] Show IPA verb, -grad⋅ed, -grad⋅ing.
–verb (used with object)
1. to lower in dignity or estimation; bring into contempt: He felt they were degrading him by making him report to the supervisor.
2. to lower in character or quality; debase.
3. to reduce (someone) to a lower rank, degree, etc.; deprive of office, rank, status, or title, esp. as a punishment: degraded from director to assistant director.
4. to reduce in amount, strength, intensity, etc.
5. Physical Geography. to wear down by erosion, as hills. Compare aggrade.
6. Chemistry. to break down (a compound, esp. an organic hydrocarbon).

–verb (used without object) 7. to become degraded; weaken or worsen; deteriorate.
8. Chemistry. (esp. of an organic hydrocarbon compound) to break down or decompose.

To empirically verify the degrading nature of heteronormative sex, I propose an experiment which is at least as empirically valid as other online studies performed in the Roissysphere.

If you are a hetero male, I want you to follow these instructions closely.

1) Get on your knees with your legs slightly spread.
2) Position yourself so that your head is closer to the ground than your ass. Arch your back.
3) Remain in this position for a few minutes.

Ok, you complied? Let's review the nature of this experience.

Question (1) Pick the word that most closely describes how you felt in that position.

a) powerful
b) callipygean (s'how I always feel anyways)
c) ulotrichous
d) degraded

That was step one. For step two of the experiment, you probably have to use your imagination. Return yourself to the position required for question 1 (remember to keep your head to the ground and your butt raised high), and now close your eyes and envision the following scenario. An entity of a categorically different physical form with twice your muscle weight is going to repeatedly jam a six inch foreign object into to a cavity in the middle of your body. Imagine this vividly for several minutes.

Ok, back up? Now again let's review how this made you feel for question 2.

a) noble
b) ninja-like
c) jumentous
d) degraded

Imagine that the above scenario is regularly expected of you. Note that the larger entity involved in the thought experiment in question 2 is practiced at lying, bribery, coercion and emotional manipulation and enjoys using such methods to convince you to engage in the scenario described in question 2. You are also well informed of the historical fact that the identical predecessors of said larger entity often resorted to brute force and totalitarian oppression in order to coerce your physical category into continuously tolerating the scenario described in question 2. Additionally, these larger entities colluded together to maintain such oppression for thousands of years. This information makes you feel:

a) gymnophoria
b) skoptic (hint: this is the right answer)
c) moo cow
d) degraded

Post answers in the comments section. Notice that a number of words used in the very definition of the word degraded also directly apply to the description of the position described in question 1 (lower, reduced in rank etc).

On Blaming Oneself and Taking Responsibility for Sexual Violence: When it Is, and Is Not, Appropriate

[image is from here]

Everything before the thee asterisks [*     *     *] is from here at current.com/BBC News. Everything after the three stars is by me.  -- Julian
It is depressing that people are still quick to blame the victim of rape rather than placing the responsibility where it actually belongs - squarely on the shoulders of the perpetrator
Kate Allen
Amnesty International



Page last updated at 14:04 GMT, Monday, 15 February 2010
Women say some rape victims should take blame - survey



Rape victim in specialist clinic (posed by model)
The survey found there was some reluctance to report being raped
A majority of women believe some rape victims should take responsibility for what happened, a survey suggests.

Almost three quarters of the women who believed this said if a victim got into bed with the assailant before an attack they should accept some responsibility.

One-third blamed victims who had dressed provocatively or gone back to the attacker's house for a drink.

The survey of more than 1,000 people in London marked the 10th anniversary of the Haven service for rape victims.

More than half of those of both sexes questioned said there were some circumstances when a rape victim should accept responsibility for an attack.

Less forgiving
The study found that women were less forgiving of the victim than men.

Of the women who believed some victims should take responsibility, 71% thought a person should accept responsibility when getting into bed with someone, compared with 57% of men.

Elizabeth Harrison from Haven said there was never an excuse for forcing a woman to do something she did not want to.

"Clearly, women are in a position where they need to take responsibility for themselves - but whatever you wear and whatever you do does not give somebody else the right to rape you.

"It's important people take the time to actually look at what they are doing and make sure the person they are with is actually wanting to go ahead with what they are proposing."

The survey also found more than one in 10 people were unsure whether they would report being raped to the police, and 2% said they would definitely not do so.

The main reasons were being too embarrassed or ashamed (55%), wanting to forget it had happened (41%) and not wanting to go to court (38%).

Meanwhile, the survey suggested that many people are relaxed about their safety. Almost half of people have walked home via side streets on their own.

One in five has been so drunk they have lost their memory, while one in five has got into a taxi without checking whether it is licensed.

Hardening attitudes
When asked about their own experiences, more than a third of those polled said they had been in a situation where they could have been made to have sex against their will.

Women are more likely to have been in this situation - 40% compared to 20%.

And one in five adults had been in a situation where they were made to have sex when they did not want to. This had happened to more women (23%) than men (20%).


The online survey, titled Wake Up To Rape, polled 1,061 people aged 18 to 50, comprising 712 women and 349 men.

An Amnesty International report five years ago found that a significant minority of British people laid the blame for rape at victims themselves.

BBC home affairs correspondent Danny Shaw says this latest study suggests attitudes may have hardened. And the findings may help explain why juries are reluctant to convict in some rape trials.

Amnesty International's UK director Kate Allen said the new findings were "alarming but sadly not surprising".
"It is depressing that, nearly half a decade later, people are still quick to blame the victim of rape rather than placing the responsibility where it actually belongs - squarely on the shoulders of the perpetrator," she said.

"The government has announced that it will develop an 'integrated strategy' to tackle violence against women and these findings are another reminder of how urgent this is and how proper training, support and resourcing will be vital in making it a reality."

The Home Office said it had introduced a number of measures to the service provided to rape victims, including new police and prosecutors' guidance, monitoring of services and funding for support for rape victims.

A spokeswoman said: "The government is determined to ensure that every victim has immediate access to the services and support they need so that more victims have the confidence to come forward and report these crimes and we can bring the perpetrators to justice."
*          *          *

When I was sexually assaulted by a white het man in his thirties when I was twelve, I blamed myself for several reasons.
1. The perp didn't take responsibility for the assault, or the harm done to me, or the damage, or the hurt, or the violation. He acted as though he was fully entitled to do what he did, which meant to me, that I was not entitled at all to say no or to fight him off.

2. I didn't fight him off or say no. I was too terrified to speak.

3. It was caused me less anxiety and post-traumatic terror, temporarily, to me to blame myself than to blame him. To blame him would have required me to be angry at him, and anger at him felt dangerous to me. It felt dangerous for me to even know what I felt about him and about what he did to me. I didn't even have language for the horror of what happened. So I buried the whole assault, emotionally, for years, never speaking of it to anyone. To blame myself meant I could imagine I had power and control in a situation in which I had neither. Self-blame = lack of vulnerability to perpetration, in my mind which had been shaped by living in a society in which perps never take responsibility for what they/we do, and instead force the victims to "prove it". Why don't the perps just admit it?

I have admitted what I've done that was harmful to other people, and have made amends with all of them. It's possible to do, if the one's you've hurt are open to hearing from you at all. And they may not be, for many good reasons. My first question to those I once harmed was "Would it be helpful to you in any way for us to discuss what I did to you?" This alerts the person harmed to the fact that I'm not about the blame them for my behavior. Everyone I've asked this to has said "Yes" and has appreciated me initiating an emotional process of me being responsible for everything I did, with that question. 

I've had to have that conversation twice. I would say that I was a perpetrator twice. When I have described in detail what happened, what I did, and what the dynamics and context was, most men don't consider it abusive of me at all, among both het and gay men. Some women don't either, but every feminist I've talked to about those two incidents "get it" about why consent wasn't meaningful and my actions caused harm.

In neither case was the scenario overtly forceful. In court, both situations would be called "consensual" and would not be called sexual abuse, but I knew that due to many factors, consent wasn't all that meaningful. In both cases I was an older male who had some sexual contact with a younger male. In neither case was the male underage (under seventeen) at the time of the contact. One male was seventeen, and one was nineteen. I was ten years older with the seventeen year-old, and more than twice the age of the nineteen year-old. 

I made an effort to speak with both men about what I did, and when either tried to put some of the blame on themselves, with statements like "I initiated part of that" or "I feel like I used you too", I explained why I didn't think that was a reason for me not being fully responsible for what happened, and they got to disagree, but they did come to see that I was fully responsible. It was meaningful to them not just that "I was sorry" or that "I regretted it occurring". What was especially meaningful to each person I'd perpetrated was that I didn't let them take the blame, or initiate the conversation being unclear about who did what to whom. It was also helpful that I welcomed them to express any feelings they had, including anger, at me, to me, whenever they wished to and that I told them they were fully entitled to be angry with me for manipulating situations to allow sex to occur. In neither case was I the sole initiator of the sexual behavior. But in both cases I choreographed the opportunities for that sexual behavior to occur--behavior that was abusive on my part because consent was not meaningful. More simply put, if someone cannot, at any moment, say "no" to what is happening in a sexual encounter, then a "yes" given or implied earlier on is not an indicator of meaningful consent being present at the time of abuse or assault.

Assuming for the moment a two-person scenario, which was the case in both situations in which I was abusive to others, I think the following is important to note. For me, to me, consent is only meaningful if both people are fully aware of all of what is about to occur, or is in the perpetrator's mind to do before it happens, and he shares that, those intentions, those wishes, before any sexual activity occurs, but NOT in a way that is coercive, or intended to make sure it happens. It is also important that all consequences be discussed before sexual activity ensues, no matter who initiates it. Consent also requires equal political agency and capacity to say no, or to otherwise indicate a wish to not proceed or to stop. Consent also requires the person with more political power, social status, and institutional entitlements to make sure the person being sexually engaged is not dissociated, is fully present, is willfully engaging in the behavior and is welcoming of it. And I did many of those things, and still abuse occurred. This is one of many reasons I believe most men are sexual abusers. Because most sex men initiate or choreograph or "make happen" doesn't do all of the above.

When the perpetrator doesn't take full responsibility, or worse, blames the one harmed, then it is yet another form of abuse against that person by the abuser.

MutherFuckerForLies, aka "MotherForTruth" on how the raped are responsible for being raped

 
[image of anti-rape poster by men's anti-rape group is from here]

I encourage anyone who is anti-rape to visit this website and respond to this piece of writing in need of feminist analysis, titled:

Concern over 'Women say some rape victims should take blame' survey

Below is a comment posted to that "discussion". And below that is my reply, calling out that pro-rape het-man. Please add your comments.


MotherForTruth

  • It is not ok to rape someone.
    But what is considered a rape? It is not so simple. Our emotions interfere to see clearly and we tend to react to the word “rape” picturing a bad guy taking advantage of this poor innocent girl.
    In my opinion it is not what she is wearing or how she talks it's the intent of attracting sexual advances. I hear first-hand stories all the time.

    Picture this party; heavy drinking, sex games, stripping, dancing with sexual intent where a female turns her back towards the male and shaking her body against him. Now all heavily drunk the two have sex. The next morning she regrets the whole thing. Was she raped? She wants to put the blame on him because it's easier for her to be a victim then facing the circumstances of her actions.

    In this scenario I believe there was a consensual sex not rape. But all too often such circumstances resulting in women claim rape. We now have laws allowing prosecution of men having sex with intoxicated woman and the law is blind on one eye by ignoring that the man was also intoxicated. Resulting in men in prison and registered sex offender for life while she can go on to another party.
    Rape charges like these take away from real victims of rape who do need to come forward and get help.

    Well known radical feminists view on rape is as followed, it's up to each of us to follow these beliefs or not.

    " all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent"(Catherine MacKinnon in Professing Feminism: Cautionary Tales from the Strange World of Women's Studies, p. 129.)

    "All men are rapists and that's all they are"(Marilyn French Author, "The Women's Room”, and advisor to Al Gore's Presidential Campaign)

    "All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman."(Catherine MacKinnon)

    "Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience."(Catherine Comins, Vassar College Assistant Dean of Student Life in Time, June 3, 1991, p. 52.)

julianreal
responding to
  • MotherForTruth:"In my opinion it is not what she is wearing or how she talks it's the intent of attracting sexual advances."

    Rape is not AT ALL about the intentions of those who are raped, but ENTIRELY ABOUT the effect of the rapers on those they violate and harm.

    "Picture this party; heavy drinking, sex games, stripping, dancing with sexual intent where a female turns her back towards the male and shaking her body against him. Now all heavily drunk the two have sex. The next morning she regrets the whole thing. Was she raped? She wants to put the blame on him because it's easier for her to be a victim then facing the circumstances of her actions."

    Get this:
    As Andrea Dworkin once famously said about date-rape victims:
    the punishment for getting drunk with a frat boy and taking him to your room should be a hangover, not rape.


    "In this scenario I believe there was a consensual sex not rape. But all too often such circumstances resulting in women claim rape. We now have laws allowing prosecution of men having sex with intoxicated woman and the law is blind on one eye by ignoring that the man was also intoxicated."

    In your fake scenario, you get to believe whatever you want. And so what? If a drunk driver hits another drunk driver, does that means there was no accident? And if drunk driver A kills drunk driver B, is B not dead because they also were drunk?

    If I start to have sex because I want to, and then stop, and say I want to and he doesn't respect it, then guess what? That's rape. See here for more:


    http://radicalprofeminist.blogspot.com/2010/02/how-...

    By your logic no harm is can be done if two people are drunk. Well that lets all rapists know how to get away with it, doesn't it? Just get the woman [and yourself, the rapist] drunk. (Hmmm. And how many frat boys and guys out at a bar do exactly that?)

    "Resulting in men in prison and registered sex offender for life while she can go on to another party."

    Not likely. Most rapes aren't reported and most reported rapes don't result in a conviction. Even a woman with a knife at her neck who was raped will have a hard time proving it. Because people like you will say she intended to have sex. He won't be harmed at all, but she will be called a "wh*re" and a "sl*t" and be told she now deserves to be raped, and she'll be threatened and probably raped by some jerks who are pissed because she "falsely" accused a man who DID date raped her. And he's not even likely to see jail time! So get a clue, please, about how rape prosecution really works... for men who rape, not for women who are raped.

    "Rape charges like these take away from real victims of rape who do need to come forward and get help."

    Comments like yours take away from believing any woman who is date raped.


    "Well known radical feminists view on rape is as followed, it's up to each of us to follow these beliefs or not."

    You're statements that follow are "false accusations" (lies) that are typically passed around the internet without any fact-checking. They were never said by Catharine MacKinnon, whose misspelled name you copied and pasted without correcting. (Hint: That's how you know she didn't say it: the misogynist misquoter can't even spell the name right!)

    " all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent"(Catherine MacKinnon in Professing Feminism: Cautionary Tales from the Strange World of Women's Studies, p. 129.)

    That's not one of CathArine A. MacKinnon's books, first of all. And she never said it. Ever. Or wrote it down. Try and find it in one of her books or speeches: you won't.

    "All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman."(Catherine MacKinnon)

    That's not a comment ever made by MacKinnon either. Your credibility as a commenter--and you are a man, not a woman at all, by the way--is busted.


    Check this out for some truth-telling about what MacKinnon did and didn't say and write, and please note how to spell her name, so the next time you copy and paste lies here, you can at least correct that inaccuracy, while you seek to promote the rest:

    http://www.snopes.com/quotes/mackinnon.asp


    Guess what? You lied. Now how many people have you harmed by doing so?