tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6744114065733119575.post4000065309851851776..comments2024-03-13T11:14:26.768-04:00Comments on A Radical Profeminist: Anti-Radical Anti-Feminism in Pro-Transgender, Pro-Procurement, Pro-CRAP Activist Networks: PART TWO OF TWOUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6744114065733119575.post-73467528482120061732014-07-24T23:28:11.003-04:002014-07-24T23:28:11.003-04:00Greetings, Weronika Nana.
Thank you so much for c...Greetings, Weronika Nana.<br /><br />Thank you so much for commenting. <br /><br />I've tried to engage other trans- and inter-gender folks on these subjects. Some folks will. Most will not.<br /><br />I have challenged some people (a few trans people but mostly not trans) who grew up recognised socially as boys. When I make the case that anyone in that social category learned to behave in the world as a gender-privileged person, and that learning doesn't just evaporate if someone transitions in a variety of ways (including from straight-identified to gay-identified, or from butch to femme), I'm either called transphobic or the person I'm hoping to converse with exits fast.<br /><br />It's rare, in my experience, that someone who knows about trans existence, deeply, from the inside out and from the outside in, is willing to engage on these issues.<br /><br />Anyway, thank you for stopping by. Make yourself at home. :)Julian Realhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02933612851144914687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6744114065733119575.post-61635545728371909632014-07-24T12:01:34.720-04:002014-07-24T12:01:34.720-04:00Thank you for this post. It's one of the most ...Thank you for this post. It's one of the most interesting and intelligent analysis of situation in LGBT society I had read.<br /><br />I'm transsexual woman (MtF) and I saw many pathological phenomena in our community (we are not a monolith) but I never had a opportunity for systematization. I'm glad to see that many people can discuss without hate.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07630650422518273314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6744114065733119575.post-86289952303333136042010-11-19T22:12:53.549-05:002010-11-19T22:12:53.549-05:00Thank you for linking, Julian!Thank you for linking, Julian!Owl Eyeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12793407779982322873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6744114065733119575.post-75750347062948183692010-11-19T01:19:37.281-05:002010-11-19T01:19:37.281-05:00Thanks, Owl Eyes!
I'll make the link to your ...Thanks, Owl Eyes!<br /><br />I'll make the link to your post accessible here:<br /><br /><a href="http://bonerkilling.blogspot.com/2010/11/some-thoughts-on-feminism-individualism.html" rel="nofollow">Some Thoughts on Feminism, Individualism, and Liberal Queer Theories by White Dudes, by Owl Eyes, at her blog</a>Julian Realhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02933612851144914687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6744114065733119575.post-63678666301982704982010-11-18T22:14:11.401-05:002010-11-18T22:14:11.401-05:00Two-parter?! I haven't even gotten through hal...Two-parter?! I haven't even gotten through half of the post yet! I read it once and keep having to take breaks!Cerienhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04373007983561451615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6744114065733119575.post-53614296532442078442010-11-18T16:25:00.307-05:002010-11-18T16:25:00.307-05:00I can't wait to check out the newest posts on ...I can't wait to check out the newest posts on this topic. I have a giant transnational feminist project I'm working on for my WMST course, but when I'm done working I will give it a read!<br /><br />I thought you would find it interesting, julian, my post on individualism and liberal queer theory got a response that is similar to many you get. Stating that MTF ARE women, the same and are thus oppressed the same if not more so. Check it out if you can. <br /><br />http://bonerkilling.blogspot.com/2010/11/some-thoughts-on-feminism-individualism.htmlOwl Eyeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12793407779982322873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6744114065733119575.post-13672188955071471432010-11-18T16:03:54.594-05:002010-11-18T16:03:54.594-05:00Cerien had a long comment as a reply, so I made it...Cerien had a long comment as a reply, so I made it into a guest post, with Cerien's approval.<br /><br />Here it is, and it's a two-parter, folks! This is the link to part 1:<br /><br /><a rel="nofollow">http://radicalprofeminist.blogspot.com/2010/11/first-guest-post-from-cerien-when.html</a>Julian Realhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02933612851144914687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6744114065733119575.post-19087414944438939712010-11-17T23:29:48.395-05:002010-11-17T23:29:48.395-05:00OMFG! You must be transphobic! How dare you insinu...OMFG! You must be transphobic! How dare you insinuate that transfolk aren't the most oppressed group, ever, in the history of the universe!<br /><br />... [recalibrates sarcasm-o-meter]<br /><br />I have a couple thoughts on this. I hope you don't mind me splitting this up into a couple comments, because it's going to take a while.<br /><br />1. Divinity is actually fairly representative of "trans activists". When she talks about "the transgendered", she isn't talking about gender-variants, body-dysmorphics, genderqueers or even <i>transsexuals at all</i>. She's talking about MTFs.<br /><br />Mikhaela Reid does this, too. Her comic, <a href="http://m1khaela.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">the Boiling Point</a>, in the four comics that mention transsexuals explicitly (with a total of 10 transfolk), only <i>one</i> is not an MTF. When people talk about "transfolk", when people talk about "transgendered", they aren't talking about 80% of all transpeople: they're talking about MTFs.<br /><br />I'm gender fluid/variant. They aren't talking about me.<br /><br />My best friend is a male-identified gender-variant (i.e., genderqueer FTM). They aren't talking about zem.<br /><br />I have more friends: gender-fluid, agendered, genderfucking, and so on. They aren't talking about them, either.<br /><br />So, all this yammering from the "trans activists" about "inclusiveness" is bullshit.<br /><br />Sub-rant #1: "MTFs don't have male privilege; they give that up when they transition."<br /><br />This fucking pisses me off, because it is possibly the most covertly anti-feminist statement you could make today.<br /><br />First because it ignores everything we know about privilege; it isn't something that leaves you untouched because you don't <i>really</i> identify with the privileged side of the binary. When you grow up being treated with privilege, you develop entitlement in tandem with it. Entitlement expresses itself without you consciously knowing it; it can be something as simple as defining/naming reality when contradicting a woman if she is hurt or offended by something you said/did - "No, it's like this. (And so you have no reason to feel that way.)" - or as blatant as MRAs whining about how all women are whores and bitches because their ex-wife got fed up with being treated like an intellectual and social invalid.<br /><br />And privilege is mostly designed to work against people who don't have it. Most women were never raised with (gendered) privilege and the ensuing entitlement, so they don't have any defense or resistance to others' entitlement. When my best friend, who passed as male 24/7 from the age of seven 'til the age of 15, kept defining reality whenever I got upset ("No, I didn't mean it like that."), it took a lot of talking and a lot of figuring out before the issue was dealt with. I barely noticed it was there, except for feeling angry, self-hating and invalidated for being upset at something that (as zie defined it) wasn't even a problem.<br /><br />So no. People may respond to you differently in some ways, but privilege doesn't just "go away" once you decide to transition.<br /><br />Second, because it assumes that privilege is either a) the fault and responsibility of everyone else in the world, or b) inherent to... "maleness".<br /><br />The latter doesn't need any explanation. But the former explains privilege as something you just <i>lose</i> if you start passing as something else; it's all the fault of other people. Brilliant thought! If we all just stopped treating privileged people with privilege, then it wouldn't exist anymore!<br /><br />Ridiculous victim-blaming.<br /><br />And third, because it assumes a certain amount of biological determinism. If you don't <i>feel</i> male, or don't <i>present</i> as male, then preso-chango! All that nasty privilege has gone away, and now you can claim to be the #1 oppressed group in <i>the world</i>!Delianthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06869037918787058475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6744114065733119575.post-79173411726205581312010-11-16T11:41:21.551-05:002010-11-16T11:41:21.551-05:00"This issue of the meaning of our "parts..."This issue of the meaning of our "parts" has to be "unpacked" because it is a huge point of contention, and I think quite rightly so"<br /><br />Absolutley! This is clear, scientific objectification that ALWAYS happens because the sciences are white supremacist, embracing purely western values of the body. They tend to dissect humans into mere parts. What those parts mean determines SO much in Western Culture. These parts DO NOT establish gender. <br /><br />I, like you, agree that most liberal queer spaces are male dominanted, radical feminists especially radical lesbian feminists are disregarded and undervalued. It saddens me beyond words to see so many privleged women choosing to protect pimps, pornographers and male supremacy at the expense of women's experience across the globe. <br /><br />Apparently protecting white individualist 'values' is more important than what women as a class suffer at the hands of these men and 'sex positive' feminists who are far more concerned with upholding capitalism, patriarchy and the like than the fact that these institutions are keeping women as a CLASS oppressed.Owl Eyeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12793407779982322873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6744114065733119575.post-76924980275557543482010-11-15T04:16:51.527-05:002010-11-15T04:16:51.527-05:00Hi Owl Eyes,
I'm finally getting caught up on...Hi Owl Eyes,<br /><br />I'm finally getting caught up on reading your comments--and please don't ever apologise for commenting "too much". That's never been a problem here!! :)<br /><br />I'm in complete agreement with you about how anti-feminists will pick and choose their topics to make only the points they wish to see made, all the while ignoring something I call "CRAP", including, especially, who dies because it is so promoted, protected, and celebrated as the greatest thing ever. And yes--how the radical feminists take the hits, when the pimping men really ought to be taking them over and over and over again until there are no more pimping men.<br /><br />It's a "dead giveaway" that one is contending with anti-feminism when people argue against feminism in favor of what men work so hard to control and maintain.<br /><br />I suspect that Divinity was speaking about legislation in Sweden when referring to influential radical feminism, but her reach into other countries neglected to notice how our country's wealthy WHM are pimping, trafficking, slaving, and procuring the rest of the world's girls and women. Why she'd intentionally miss that atrocity in favor of noting how Sweden's law, in her view and in the view of many procurers and pimps, has "gone too far" is something I hope she addresses here at some point. No country I'm aware of has "gone too far" in the direction of eliminating patriarchal harms. Not one. Not even close to "too far".Julian Realhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02933612851144914687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6744114065733119575.post-58407424257533402582010-11-15T01:12:28.579-05:002010-11-15T01:12:28.579-05:00It is distressing to see someone who is not transg...It is distressing to see someone who is not transgender, who is Western and light-skinned, who has, in the lexicon of some trans politics and culture, cis gender privilege, tell us all about who the world's most oppressed people are. Granted, I believe she was largely owning this as her own view, as how she feels based on her own experiences in communities she's been part of, but that's a really tricky thing to put forth, and I just think those of us in the West, who have only been in the West--especially, have no business making such proclamations.<br /><br />Even within the West, it is stunning and horrifying both how few class-privileged white people even know what life on reservations can be like. There's virtually no press on the issue. And so if one is class privileged and trans, for example, they are likely to be far more socially validated than someone who is poor and Two Spirit-identified, if that's their term of choice, which isn't the case among "all" American Indians, needless to say.<br /><br />There are groups among and within the umbrella of "trans" who are marginalised just by trans people. When's the last time you heard trans activists discussing the need to visibilise intergender experience and reality, for example? When do LGBTIA groups even deal with "being intergender"? In my experience, among some very privileged queer folks, the answer is "NOT AT ALL".<br /><br />So I'm not comfortable promoting one very diverse group whose privileges are all over the place--including trans people having cis gender privileges--as "being the most marginalised, most feared, and least understood". Because another question is, "by whom are we misunderstood?" And the answer to that is, "frequently, even within and among ourselves!"Julian Realhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02933612851144914687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6744114065733119575.post-7480553382022764882010-11-15T01:01:31.606-05:002010-11-15T01:01:31.606-05:00Good catch on the "gender reassignment" ...Good catch on the "gender reassignment" matter.<br /><br />Yes, as far as I know it isn't and ought not be called "gender reassignment surgery" but is, rather, called SRA, with the S standing for sex. This doesn't just biologise "sex"--which one could make a case for doing, as non-human animals are often "male" and "female", it also politicises it, makes it social, because the meaning of the "parts" is what makes someone feel more or less dissonant in themselves/ourselves.<br /><br />This issue of the meaning of our "parts" has to be "unpacked" because it is a huge point of contention, and I think quite rightly so. After all, if radical lesbian feminists who are f-a-a-b take issue politically with f-a-a-b women getting breast implants to prove their 'womanness' why would the critique shut down or cease if non-faab people do the same thing, for the same reason: to feel more like how they imagine themselves to be?<br /><br />Now, having said that, I think the tensions being worked through when surgeries are employed are not precisely the same for non-trans and trans people. I don't believe transgender post-op people are intending to pose as women, exactly, if MtF. I think that's ascribing a political motivation that is far too speculative and not at all what I hear MtF trans people saying about their own decisions and experiences.<br /><br />I think the conversation that never quite happens has to do with "intention" vs. "effect" socially. For example, I can well understand someone wanting to alter oneself to try and gain some sense of wholeness not felt in the body one was born in. I can WELL imagine it because had I not found radical feminism first, or had I been coming up in my teens and twenties through this period of time, as opposed to the 1980s, I'd likely be trans-identified and may well have pursued some forms of medical interventions to make me feel more whole, or more like how I feel inside. But the radical feminist challenges to what, exactly, those feelings are about, have been instrumental in steering me clear of hormone therapies and surgeries. <br /><br />I'm just one person and my own experiences aren't everyone's by a long shot! So I'm only sharing this anecdotally. But, more to the point, I've heard other radical feminist-identified people talk about this as well: that if they'd come to liberal queer/trans theories about gender before getting radical feminist theories, they too may well be transgender-identified, including utilising some medical interventions. <br /><br />This needs FAR more respectful, engaged discussion among intergender/transgender and radical feminist people, I feel.Julian Realhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02933612851144914687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6744114065733119575.post-8871273146700898452010-11-15T00:49:30.412-05:002010-11-15T00:49:30.412-05:00Hi Owl Eyes,
Here's the comment of yours that...Hi Owl Eyes,<br /><br />Here's the comment of yours that wound up on the other post, just so it is here, in the right place. Thanks so much for all your supportive and affirming comments!!!<br /><br /> "A subgroup that is one of the most stigmatized, feared, hated, and misunderstood in just about every society in the world.<br /> [Isn't this a classic example of doing what some feminist and anti-feminist bloggers call "oppression olympics"? Are we really supposed to understand and believe that six to twelve year-old non-trans girls in poor countries as LESS HATED and MORE UNDERSTOOD and LESS STIGMATISED than trans adults doing sex work in wealthier countries? To me, that'd be an astoundingly Western racist, elitist, and callous thing to be implying. Not as callous as how Western wealthy white men treat six to twelve year old girls in poor countries, however. Because they are committed degrading acts against actual people, while Divinity is making a statement in a video on YouTube, and those things are not equal--to be clear. Not by a long-shot. More on this point later."<br /><br /> You read my mind after I saw "Transgendered people are the most oppressed" I was thinking, wait? Does she mean in the West? Because there's a thing called 'feminization of poverty' that begs to disagree with her argument. The majority, a disgustingly high majority of the world's poor, living with HIV, face the highest rate of rape, abuse and murder are female-assigned-at-birth women. This illustrates, like you stated, the narrow minded, white-supremacist view that is so disgustingly anti-feminist I could tear my hair out!<br /> Sunday, November 14, 2010 9:19:00 PM ESTJulian Realhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02933612851144914687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6744114065733119575.post-52466420493925073702010-11-14T22:29:45.865-05:002010-11-14T22:29:45.865-05:00Sorry for clogging your comment feed, i'll try...Sorry for clogging your comment feed, i'll try and fit the rest of my tidbits in one comment. <br /><br />"[There's one other rather obvious reason why anyone chooses sex work: because there are selfish, entitled sexist/misogynistic/racist/classist men who want to purchase and rent human beings for sex. Without them, there'd be no sex work.]"<br /><br />YES! Why doesn't anyone want to analyze the johns role? No one wants to understand why there is a demand for women to be sexually accessible to men at any time? Why does this go unchallenged and uncritisized by these so called "sex positive/pro-sex industry feminists" <br /><br />I mean, to state that "women go into sex work, that's why there is sex work" is to ignore substantial influential factors like the economy, globalization, colonialism, race, class and a million other factors that directly contribute to the trafficking of human beings, sex work and other forms of purchasing human beings. <br /><br />It scares me that these apparent 'feminists' are more concerned with protecting male-supremacy and harmful misogynistic values than they are with protecting WOMEN. <br /><br />"there they find company in their fellow outcasts – the whores of the world."<br /><br />I also object to this. As a woman it disgusts me to hear ANYONE use this term to describe someone. This is not a reclamation of the word, we didn't create it. It's a word used by men to shame, harm and degrade women. It is not somehow transgressive to 'reclaim' woman-hating words. They should be spit on and thrown away.<br /><br />"Herein lies the nature of the conflict between feminists with the power to influence policy"<br /><br />Whoa! Wait a minute. When the hell has a radical feminist/radical lesbian feminist/radical pro feminist, radical ANYONE make a policy and get it passed? SERIOUSLY? Is she serious?Owl Eyeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12793407779982322873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6744114065733119575.post-37739924956441797842010-11-14T21:56:20.150-05:002010-11-14T21:56:20.150-05:00"It's curious to me how you never seen to..."It's curious to me how you never seen to pick up on what's valuable about those bits of analysis--about the way men DO vampirically suck the life out of women."<br /><br />This is what is so awful about attempts from non-radical/anti-feminists and so forth to sabotage radical feminism, including non-white radical feminism and radical lesbian feminism. Their analysis isn't fair, it simply takes what it wants and critisizing ONE thing. They can never look back and try and understand it on a universal, not individual scale. If it harms or does not affirm their privilege in society, by challenging their ideas about oppression (i.e concerning themselves with tattoos, piercings and strip bars that enable men to access women as they please and objectify them in ways that the status quo sees fit) and helping build a society that is egalitarian and free from white male supremacy. Instead they pick bits and pieces out that most affect them on an individual scale. As if one radical feminist making a fair critique on body modifications and mutilation to, like you said, affirm gender, is really equal to their defense of pornographers who piss, shit, spit, degrade, objectify, torture and harm women on a daily basis. They would rather point out that 'silly' radical feminist who attempted to unpack some liberal white queer politics than point a finger at white male supremacy and the upholding of oppressive and woman-hating values by supporting the exploitation and degradation of millions of women world wide.Owl Eyeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12793407779982322873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6744114065733119575.post-17513515117965419572010-11-14T21:38:12.783-05:002010-11-14T21:38:12.783-05:00My last comment was intended to be on this post bu...My last comment was intended to be on this post but i think i accidently put it on the previous post. Got myself all confused :P<br /><br />Anyway,<br />I have to add some thoughts.<br />"Sometimes they turn to sex work just to earn extra money to save up for a gender reassignment surgery that almost no insurance company will pay for, just so they can be who they are, just like you and me."<br /><br />I just have to wonder, "Gender Reassignment?" I hope this is merely a typo, as one cannot be "given" a gender through surgery, but is given a genital surgery to change the physical sex they were born with. Gender is not a biological phenomenon. <br /><br />Also, i was rather taken aback by the "you and me", it sounded much like "you and me" and..."the other" As you stated, who is to say "you" is not transgendered? It separates a group of people into "the other" and it is profoundly condescending in a way "well, they can afford surgery to feel free, like you and me" suggesting that everyone else, including non-trans people do not feel "full" or "complete" or know who they are as individuals, including their gender.Owl Eyeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12793407779982322873noreply@blogger.com